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Author Topic: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism  (Read 3945 times)

Valentine

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 04:35:42 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81464
the only thing I know about them is that they don't eat meat unless it's from fish.

Also, you're missing out on a hell of a brisket.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 04:36:02 pm by Valentine »
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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 04:38:05 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;81470
Also, you're missing out on a hell of a brisket.

 
With horseradish.
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Valentine

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2012, 04:41:09 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;81471
With horseradish.

 
Though I have to say I'm partial to a nice mutton, lettuce, and tomato sandwich--when the mutton is nice and lean, and the tomato is ripe--they're so perky, I love that.
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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2012, 04:46:45 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;81473
Though I have to say I'm partial to a nice mutton, lettuce, and tomato sandwich

 
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Zaphaux

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2012, 04:54:47 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;81469
I think before you make sweeping pronouncements about other religions, it might behoove you to do a little homework.

Here, I'll help you start: it is not "if."  The "Old Testament," as many Christians call it, is all Jewish scripture.  (It is not all of Jewish scripture, there is more to be had, but it is all Jewish.)  Jesus--you may have heard of him--and all of his early followers were Jews.  At the time, Jews were a persecuted people living under the power of an occupying Roman imperial government.
Christianity originated as a sect within Judaism, and then eventually started taking in non-Jews and spreading further in the world.  The "New Testament" is so called because it was added onto existing Jewish scripture by followers of Jesus.

I think Wikipedia will be of help to you, to move on from those bare bones.
I didn't meant to say something I was not sure, sorry. Yet, I have already said I know nothing about the religion.
 However, the if up there was a translating mistake, I meant something like "Since you said that the old testament are Jewish documents, I'd say yes. [...] ".
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 05:00:55 pm by Zaphaux »

Naomi J

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Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2012, 05:03:20 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81405
What's so dangerous about knowledge that religions like Christianity despise so much?
 First, at Genesis, God put the Tree of Knowledge, and tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Then it comes the snake (symbol of the knowledge and wisdom) and tells eve to eat from the tree. They do, and God bans them from the Garden of Eden. Also, I'm pretty sure in some parts of the bible God himself says that knowledge will be destroyed, and other things like it.

 Do you think that christianity promotes ignorance in a shameless way?

 Also, there is that illustration of Saint Mary crushing the head of the serpent
http://www.irmasgracianas.com.br/portal/images/stories/nossa-senhora-da-medalha-milagrosa-1.jpg

 I don't know, but if Lucifer/Satan's called the "god of the lie", how can he be the "god of the knowledge"? Is the Christian God the true devil, god of ignorance, therefore god of lie?

This is part of what Gnostics saw in Christianity, hence seeing the snake as an avatar of Sophia (Wisdom). Some modern Gnostics see Eve as the first Gnostic saint, since she brought knowledge and wisdom into the world. It's not the most mainstream way to do Christianity, but it does illustrate that people respond to these symbols and stories in a variety of ways. There are creative ways to engage with religious symbolism.

However, Mary crushing the head of the serpent is a reference to a verse in the Bible that positions Jesus as the descendant of Eve who reverses her curse. But it's complex theology, and more about the human condition in relation to sin and the devil than about ignorance or wisdom. The serpent as a wisdom figure is a later, Gnostic development, not an original Jewish one.

I know of nowhere in the Bible where it says that knowledge will be destroyed. Wisdom is a celebrated aspect of God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the New is the Logos, i.e. the Word. You'd have to know the Bible quite well to be able to make a case that all of Christianity celebrates ignorance. There have been traditions, such as apophatic theology and the 'holy fool' tradition, that have celebrated the limits of our knowledge about the Divine, but that's really not the same thing. Blanket statements about any religion are always suspect - Christianity is a huge and very diverse religion, and theologians agree on almost nothing about it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 05:05:43 pm by Naomi J »
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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2012, 05:27:36 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;81478
This is part of what Gnostics saw in Christianity, hence seeing the snake as an avatar of Sophia (Wisdom). Some modern Gnostics see Eve as the first Gnostic saint, since she brought knowledge and wisdom into the world. It's not the most mainstream way to do Christianity, but it does illustrate that people respond to these symbols and stories in a variety of ways. There are creative ways to engage with religious symbolism.

However, Mary crushing the head of the serpent is a reference to a verse in the Bible that positions Jesus as the descendant of Eve who reverses her curse. But it's complex theology, and more about the human condition in relation to sin and the devil than about ignorance or wisdom. The serpent as a wisdom figure is a later, Gnostic development, not an original Jewish one.

I know of nowhere in the Bible where it says that knowledge will be destroyed. Wisdom is a celebrated aspect of God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the New is the Logos, i.e. the Word. You'd have to know the Bible quite well to be able to make a case that all of Christianity celebrates ignorance. There have been traditions, such as apophatic theology and the 'holy fool' tradition, that have celebrated the limits of our knowledge about the Divine, but that's really not the same thing. Blanket statements about any religion are always suspect - Christianity is a huge and very diverse religion, and theologians agree on almost nothing about it.

 In the burning times, women better provided of intellectuality/knowledge were usually the ones who were called witches. We soon get to the point that ignorance was something that the religion disseminated. In the Dark Age, scientists, philosophers and others were pursued for contradicting the Church and seeking for knowledge, whereas Dalai Lama have said once: "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, Buddhism will have to change".

 I've read about this part of the bible of the Mary's illustration while I was looking for the photo to include in the thread, the commentary about how it could mean the destruction of knowledge was - again - more of a conspirational thing, and I don't share the mentality of these kind of extremist people.

Darkhawk

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 06:35:13 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81482
In the burning times,


The "burning times" is largely a myth put forward by neo-pagans who want to imagine that they, as suburban white teenagers, are secretly carrying a legacy of persecution.  It's a nice fairy tale for people who want to pretend that they're victims reclaiming a fallen glory or some such nonsense.

Those people who were targetted were typically either social outcasts who were blamed as scapegoats or women with property that could be confiscated if they were gotten out of the way.
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Zaphaux

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 06:58:28 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;81494
The "burning times" is largely a myth put forward by neo-pagans who want to imagine that they, as suburban white teenagers, are secretly carrying a legacy of persecution.  It's a nice fairy tale for people who want to pretend that they're victims reclaiming a fallen glory or some such nonsense.

Those people who were targetted were typically either social outcasts who were blamed as scapegoats or women with property that could be confiscated if they were gotten out of the way.

 What do you mean? Look, keep in mind that since English is not my native language, I can make some mistakes... but I'm talking about the Inquisition. Even in the schools they teach us about these period of the history when the Church pursued and burned people and specially women by heresy, witchcraft, these kind of things. I myself believe that not even the half of the women they killed were actually witches. For me they were just poor innocent women killed undeservedly.

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2012, 07:21:47 pm »
Quote from: MordredRedeemed;81428
I have heard factual accounts of people not believing in dinosaurs. They have said that god put the fossils there to "Test our faith" about the world only being 3000 or so years old. And the whole "God hates gays thing" makes me facepalm hard enough to get a slight headache, when we've pretty much established that it is caused by genetics.

 
Neither Young Earth Creationism or the idea that God hates gay people is typical of Christianity as a whole - they're both largely confined to evangelical fundamentalist Protestantism.

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sailor

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2012, 07:27:46 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;81505
Neither Young Earth Creationism or the idea that God hates gay people is typical of Christianity as a whole - they're both largely confined to evangelical fundamentalist Protestantism.

Sunflower

 
And even within the evangelical fundamentalist Protestants, it's a fairly small group.  Or more specifically a fairly small group that believes in Young Earth Creationism beyond religious belief as opposed saying it's religious belief, but working with current scientific theory for secular purposes times.

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2012, 07:30:34 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81405
First, at Genesis, God put the Tree of Knowledge, and tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Then it comes the snake (symbol of the knowledge and wisdom) and tells eve to eat from the tree. They do, and God bans them from the Garden of Eden.

Not the Tree of knowledge but the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. God was apparently trying to keep humankind in a state of innocence. The prohibition was not against knowledge in general.

Quote
Do you think that christianity promotes ignorance in a shameless way?
Some branches of Christianity certainly do: most Protestant fundamentalist sects, for example.
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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2012, 07:35:38 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81499
What do you mean? Look, keep in mind that since English is not my native language, I can make some mistakes... but I'm talking about the Inquisition. Even in the schools they teach us about these period of the history when the Church pursued and burned people and specially women by heresy, witchcraft, these kind of things. I myself believe that not even the half of the women they killed were actually witches. For me they were just poor innocent women killed undeservedly.

 
Here, have some (fairly) recent scholarship on the subject.

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2012, 07:44:55 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;81511
Here, have some (fairly) recent scholarship on the subject.

Sunflower

 Surely I'll be reading it. Thanks (:

Quote from: RandallS;81509
Not the Tree of knowledge but the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. God was apparently trying to keep humankind in a state of innocence. The prohibition was not against knowledge in general.

Some branches of Christianity certainly do: most Protestant fundamentalist sects, for example.

 
[Ecclesiastes 1:18] "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief."

[Philippians 2:14] "Do everything without grumbling or arguing"

[1 Corinthians 1:19] "For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”"

 The last one is the one - I could finally find - that was written that he would destroy the knowledge.

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Re: Religions against knowledge, snakes and Satanism
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2012, 08:05:51 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;81513
Surely I'll be reading it. Thanks (:


 
[Ecclesiastes 1:18] "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief."

[Philippians 2:14] "Do everything without grumbling or arguing"

[1 Corinthians 1:19] "For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”"

 The last one is the one - I could finally find - that was written that he would destroy the knowledge.

 
And if you cherry-pick the Bible enough, you can prove Jesus was a vampire.

I just did a quick check on Corinthians.  In context, it's talking about how the wisdom of those that "know better" than the Christians will get destroyed.  NOT all wisdom - the "wisdom" and "intelligence" of putting themselves above God.

A verse out of context means VERY little.

And to your first post, about a snake being a symbol of wisdom - to SOME they're a symbol of wisdom.  They're also a symbol of POISON and DEATH. ... poison and death taunted Eve and because of that humanity became mortal. ... yeah, that makes sense, really.

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