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Author Topic: Polytheism and Science  (Read 9135 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2013, 07:54:19 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94098
The problem I am having, is this thread has become entirely about my opinions, which everyone seems to be taking personally-


First error of internet communication: assuming that people are upset when they point out errors of fact.

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My efforts to calm your mood appear to be blowing up in my face. It looks like this thread is going to turn into a fit of screaming impotent rage over whatever I said regardless of my efforts to stop it.


Second error of internet communication: attempting to police other people's emotions, especially when those emotions only actually exist in one's imagination.
as the water grinds the stone
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Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2013, 07:55:58 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;94092
I'm not here to alleviate your boredom.  I'm here to discuss topics various and sundry.  Considering this is a debate and discussion forum, this seems par for the course.  I'm not sure what about all this is so disillusioning for you.  But hey, I guess the world needs more martyrs.

No wait...it doesn't.

Brina


I came here to alleviate my own boredom, not yours, hope that does not offend. Debate and discussion is not the issue I'm having, it's that everyone is starting to sound hostile to me, taking things personally, getting emotionally worked up, which has no place in a debate and/or discussion, in my opinion. Personally, I don't approve of martyrs; their deaths don't make a difference.

Jack

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2013, 07:56:17 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94091
"What kind of science do I adhere to?" Like, what particular branch of science I study? I don't phrase ideas I hold to be true as "beliefs," to me, it's accepting facts that support the truthfulness claimed for something.


Try reading the sentence again and pretend the comma isn't there.

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I'm going to assume your "bad science" equals Joseph Campbell; he wasn't a scientist, as far as I know.


Social sciences are still sciences.

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Up until yesterday, I had never heard Joseph Campbell's ideas criticized, so I was wholly ignorant on the matter. Still, saying his work is junk, or whatever, is an opinion, not evidence that his ideas are invalid, and if you had wished to correctly "call me out on it," would have started by citing an essay or whatever refuting the views of his when I referred to my notes.


I think in this paragraph you're drifting a little close to telling others how to post, but I'll let a moderator make that call. When you asked for some sources explaining why Campbell is considered problematic, I provided them. I haven't seen you respond to any of them yet.

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Or asking me what all of his ideas I subscribe to, before assuming I believe everything he says. From my studies of the skeptical method, you went about it all wrong, so I was unconvinced. It was only when others began saying the same thing-that this was not just one person's opinion-that I accepted that your criticisms might have merit.

 
So you only accept that what we say might have merit when several people chime in to agree, and yet you don't think we should all be chiming in to "team up" against you or whatever you're on about in your other post.

Well, then.
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Jack

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2013, 07:59:34 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94104
I came here to alleviate my own boredom, not yours, hope that does not offend.


Do you realize you're implying that we're somehow obligated to do that in a way that you approve of?

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Personally, I don't approve of martyrs; their deaths don't make a difference.

 
Which is, of course, why Christianity never went anywhere.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

yewberry

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2013, 08:12:37 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94104
I came here to alleviate my own boredom, not yours, hope that does not offend. Debate and discussion is not the issue I'm having, it's that everyone is starting to sound hostile to me, taking things personally, getting emotionally worked up, which has no place in a debate and/or discussion, in my opinion. Personally, I don't approve of martyrs; their deaths don't make a difference.

 
As far as I can tell, people are merely disagreeing with you.  You're the one getting defensive.  I'm not feeling remotely hostile toward you.  I just think you're going about this the wrong way and with a lot of preconceived notions.

Brina

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2013, 08:13:31 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;94101
At the moment a shovel seems the only tool at your disposal.  Your "explanations" read a bit like "Stop being so sensitive, you idiots."  Just my impression, but I don't think I'm alone in it.



Pretty crappy, I expect.  I might also try to figure out why I'm making such a negative impression.

Brina


In my experiences in meeting new people, I have always made a bad first impression, always say the wrong thing, my opinions are always too idiosyncratic for everyone else, and am always banned from a group because no one shares my opinions. I study etiquette, ethics, English grammar, look things up in a dictionary, I meditated until midnight yesterday about the criticisms brought against my opinions and behavior-but it has no effect, apparently. I think I simply don't have enough experience debating things with lots of people to be adequate at it.

I think I'm beyond shovel salvation.

"Stop being so sensitive, you idiots" would make a great t-shirt slogan, by the way. And yes, how you are phrasing your criticisms does make it sound like your emotions have been hurt.

Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2013, 08:26:55 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;94108
As far as I can tell, people are merely disagreeing with you.  You're the one getting defensive.  I'm not feeling remotely hostile toward you.  I just think you're going about this the wrong way and with a lot of preconceived notions.

Brina


I'm trying not to get defensive either, I'm trying to remain emotionally detached from it all, not taking anything personally-it is simply mentally exhausting responding to everyone's posts, and they all sound like they need honest answers so far, but I have never posted so many replies in my life. It is rare that anyone, let alone a whole group, takes notice of me. In person, I'm inconspicuous-the guy you will always forget; and on other chat forums my posts are barely noticed-I get maybe three replies. I just hope I learn something from all this.

Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2013, 08:56:07 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94106
Do you realize you're implying that we're somehow obligated to do that in a way that you approve of?


 
Which is, of course, why Christianity never went anywhere.


That is not what I meant at all, I make no obligations on you. The mentioning of martyrs, I assumed-wrongly?-was about the modern meaning of the term, under appreciated wives griping and so forth-no one cares about such people. I did not know the reference to martyrs was to the historical ones during the era of Christian persecution.

Alright, slight digression here.

Someone else who responded to me, and I apologize for not being able to remember any of your usernames, really, I can barely keep up with all your replies, said that I sounded defensive. So I asked myself while taking a break to relieve certain bodily functions, am I defending something? Am I defending my opinions, anything I've said so far? I have only explained myself; no one has given me the time to defend my opinions as the right ones to your wrong ones, and I would not, because I respect your differences, and I'm not going to turn things around and start ripping apart your opinions because that would be inappropriate for me. I think you deserve honest answers, despite the fact that I think your questions are not completely justifiable.

However, with this reply from Jack, I now feel like I am being pressured to explain every single sentence, regardless of its content because some members are now trying to purposefully goad me. "That's why Christianity never went anywhere"? Was that what the person who brought up martyrdom in the first place was talking about? Or was it a description of my perceived behavior?

Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2013, 09:12:22 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94105
Try reading the sentence again and pretend the comma isn't there.



Social sciences are still sciences.



I think in this paragraph you're drifting a little close to telling others how to post, but I'll let a moderator make that call. When you asked for some sources explaining why Campbell is considered problematic, I provided them. I haven't seen you respond to any of them yet.


 
So you only accept that what we say might have merit when several people chime in to agree, and yet you don't think we should all be chiming in to "team up" against you or whatever you're on about in your other post.

Well, then.

 
For your first two sentences-don't know what you're getting at with those. About your links, I have not yet had time to read all the material; I have been swamped by everyone's replies.

"Teaming up" wasn't necessary on your part. Instead of continuing to criticize my opinions-which is distracting. Instead of one guy telling me my opinions are crap because Mr. Campbell is crap, I get five more people telling me that, I got to read each post and make five more replies, when all you had to do was say, " That guy who said Campbell's bull, he's right, you gotta read these refutations, they're mind blowing." It didn't feel like teaming up to me. I wasn't telling you how to post, I was explaining to you a better way to say things to me that I would understand quicker. Regardless, I expect you will rip this post apart as well. I am starting to wonder why you are making such an effort.

Jack

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2013, 09:20:27 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94114
However, with this reply from Jack, I now feel like I am being pressured to explain every single sentence, regardless of its content because some members are now trying to purposefully goad me. "That's why Christianity never went anywhere"? Was that what the person who brought up martyrdom in the first place was talking about? Or was it a description of my perceived behavior?

 
Actually, you're overthinking it. That bit was a joke. :ange:

I understand that it can be difficult to keep up with a number of different people replying to you. Keep in mind that the board, and the thread, isn't going anywhere. You're welcome to take your time crafting replies, reading the links other people drop for you, and so on. Maybe if you take it one post at a time, you will feel less overwhelmed?

One of the things I really like about TC is that it's encouraged to double-post, so you can reply to each post individually. It's quite likely people in the thread will have different opinions from each other even if they also have differing opinions from you. This way you don't have to conflate everyone's opinion.
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Jack

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2013, 09:30:05 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94115
"Teaming up" wasn't necessary on your part. Instead of continuing to criticize my opinions-which is distracting. Instead of one guy telling me my opinions are crap because Mr. Campbell is crap, I get five more people telling me that, I got to read each post and make five more replies, when all you had to do was say, " That guy who said Campbell's bull, he's right, you gotta read these refutations, they're mind blowing." It didn't feel like teaming up to me. I wasn't telling you how to post, I was explaining to you a better way to say things to me that I would understand quicker. Regardless, I expect you will rip this post apart as well.


Like I said, people are going to reply. Since this isn't any kind of organized debate club, there's no good way to ensure that only one person makes a point and then everyone else has to let that point go. Sometimes I'll see a point's been made and let it go; other times I want to make a similar but not identical point myself.

I think that's endemic to the message board format, though. I've never been on a busy message board that didn't have that issue at least occasionally.

Quote
I am starting to wonder why you are making such an effort.

 
Mostly because work is very slow today.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2013, 10:23:58 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94078
Well, there's this thread on the old board: http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0

Here's some other links that came up in a cursory Google search:
http://roguepriest.net/2011/07/04/why-i-dont-like-joseph-campbell/
http://www.cosmosandlogos.com/category/000068.php
http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notabene/joseph-campbell.html

and this one is my favorite:
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/hulk-explains-why-we-should-stop-it-with-the-hero-journey-shit/




 
If you had started a debate about hard vs soft polytheism and then cited Campbell in support of soft polytheism, yes, I'm pretty sure we'd be questioning that choice just the same.

I wonder if maybe you should ask that question of yourself - what were you hoping to achieve with this thread?


Well, I read through these links: "Monomyth, blah, blah, Monomyth..." It was not the monomyth that impressed me, as I said before. It was creating and interpreting my own mythology and symbols.

This ten page fiasco could have been avoided if everyone had bothered to ask me what my opinion was about the monomyth, instead of jumping to the conclusion that I believed it, and criticizing me for it. All those blog posts I could have written myself.

Another thing, if you think I have said something offensive, you could take the time to ask if I was trying to offend you. One poster criticized "so you think all religious folks are a waste of life?" Which you agreed with, Jack. Automatically jumping to the conclusion that that is what I meant. A more proper way of phrasing that question would be "pardon me, but it sounded like you were saying that religious folk in general are a waste of life. Am I correct in that assumption?" Comes off as much less accusatory.

Now I feel like this thread is a sick joke, and we all have been made saps by it.

yewberry

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2013, 10:50:30 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94124
This ten page fiasco could have been avoided if everyone had bothered to ask me what my opinion was about the monomyth, instead of jumping to the conclusion that I believed it, and criticizing me for it. All those blog posts I could have written myself.


You employed Campbell.  YOU.  It's not like we brought it up.  You also mentioned his use of symbolism, which is exactly what the Monomyth is all about.  It wasn't exactly a huge leap on our part.

Quote
Another thing, if you think I have said something offensive, you could take the time to ask if I was trying to offend you.


It's not our fault you wrote what you wrote.  And it's pretty obvious why it was construed as it was.  You mention you make bad first impressions.  Do you ever blame yourself for that?  Something something patterns something something...

Brina

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2013, 11:15:23 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;94114


I now feel like I am being pressured to explain every single sentence, regardless of its content because some members are now trying to purposefully goad me. "That's why Christianity never went anywhere"? Was that what the person who brought up martyrdom in the first place was talking about? Or was it a description of my perceived behavior?

 
I have found that long treads tend to produce side conversations, that do not include the original poster, replies they are posting, or topic.  In some cases when I was the original poster I had noting to contribute to the side conversations, and in others the conversation stayed on topic but went beyond my ability to continue in it.
Light Your Candle, In Love and Service, Blessed Be.
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Chabas

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2013, 05:43:23 am »
Quote from: Materialist;93807
My experience of religion is that it should not be about "why questions," because they are the wrong questions to ask, simply, and lead to wrong answers. Asking unanswerable "why" questions like "why am I here," as you offered, solves nothing, doesn't make things better. The correct question, in my view, would be, "how did I come to be here," which, depending on the context, could involve procreation or outdated road maps. So, for me, there still shouldn't be a difference.


The Atlantic recently had an interesting article on meaning (i.e. "why questions") and why it is important, especially when times get hard. It can be found here: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/theres-more-to-life-than-being-happy/266805/

--Chabas

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