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Author Topic: Polytheism and Science  (Read 12501 times)

Materialist

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Polytheism and Science
« on: January 25, 2013, 06:30:42 pm »
I read  a lot of skeptic magazines (scientists discussing their investigations into unscientific sounding things), and a popular subject is the science vs. religion debate, as authors in these mags call it. The debates, though, are really between science and specifically monotheistic deities, and I question whether the arguments for or against either side can be equally applied to specifically polytheistic religions.

It would be interesting to see how a debate would go between a scientist, who is an atheist, as all these article writers are, and a polytheist. As with a Christian debating an atheist, the former would give evidence that God exists, that latter offering up scientific discoveries that disprove his existence.

In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?

Would it be the same things monotheists say? A creator is necessary for the universe to exist? Life is too complex for evolution to be true, so a god of some sort had to control things?

What would it be?

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 06:40:52 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;93549
I read  a lot of skeptic magazines (scientists discussing their investigations into unscientific sounding things), and a popular subject is the science vs. religion debate, as authors in these mags call it. The debates, though, are really between science and specifically monotheistic deities, and I question whether the arguments for or against either side can be equally applied to specifically polytheistic religions.

It would be interesting to see how a debate would go between a scientist, who is an atheist, as all these article writers are, and a polytheist. As with a Christian debating an atheist, the former would give evidence that God exists, that latter offering up scientific discoveries that disprove his existence.

In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?

Would it be the same things monotheists say? A creator is necessary for the universe to exist? Life is too complex for evolution to be true, so a god of some sort had to control things?

What would it be?

 
I should hope the factuality of evolution as an observable phenomenon would hardly be under debate here, at least.

Many of the logical arguments antitheists bring up to disprove the notion of Gods are predicated on "God" meaning singular, benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, that's true, and those arguments simply don't work in a polytheistic frame.  Consider David Hume's famous arguments that amount to "Does God care more about the cheetah or the gazelle?" (If there's more than one that's easy: there are multiple forces at work that are in tension.) or "Wouldn't horses have gods that look more like horses, the way humans have gods that look human?" ("Why not?")  One of his arguments flat-out concludes, and I'm paraphrasing, "For this to work there'd have to be more than one God, and we know that's absurd, therefore, there aren't any."

A polytheistic frame may or may not be tripped up on the grand question of theodicy the way a monotheistic frame often is, too.  Not all religions assume deities are benevolent or benevolent toward humans in particular.  Not all conceptions of deity treat those deities as all-powerful, or as creators.

I mean, for me, pushed, I'm not interested in proving Gods exist, and I have too much respect for the atheists in my life to try to convert them, but the arguments disproving the existence of Gods, I'll fence with if I have the time and energy.
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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 06:49:36 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;93549
In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?

 
Is there any particular reason that the polytheists in this particular world would care?  It's a common trait of historical polytheisms that of course other people don't worship their gods, that's one of the ways you know they're other people, not our people.
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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 07:02:51 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;93549
In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?

The problem is that Polytheists see no reason to care about what other people believe. This is why there aren't a lot of debates on this topic between  polytheists and skeptics -- the polytheists generally don't give a damn  what others believe about gods so long as they can worship their gods.  Someone thinks Zeus doesn't exist? So what? That doesn't affect Zeus or  me.

The two large western monotheisms, on the other hand, are very concerned that everyone believe in their (version of) god and hence see far more reasons to involve themselves in such debates than polytheists do.
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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 07:11:02 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;93557
The two large western monotheisms, on the other hand, are very concerned that everyone believe in their (version of) god and hence see far more reasons to involve themselves in such debates than polytheists do.

 
It's worth adding that providing an actual polytheistic perspective to the standard skeptic flamewar is a good way of getting stepped around as if one is covered in a Somebody Else's Problem Field.  As far as I can tell, the standard skeptic flamewar is a set-piece dance with prescribed choreography, and anyone who doesn't follow the strict set of known sound bites is roundly ignored.
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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 08:00:38 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;93549


In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?


I like your question, and I like how Randall answered it. Here's an answer that ends up in a similar place, though perhaps this answer is more applicable to the softer forms of polytheism, like mine.

Your question implies a tension--"do gods exist, or don't they?"--that for me simply isn't there. My view is, "something exists." This is a view about which both the scientifically minded atheist and the polytheist can agree.

Science is one way of exploring that something, and delivers objective results that can be replicated: empirical truth.

Religion in general (in my case, a very soft polytheism) is another way of exploring that something, and it delivers poetic results that are intensely personal. These are not empirical, should not be taken literally (the tragic error of the fundamentalist), and shouldn't even be considered in the same way as scientific insights. And yet these religious insights can also deliver truth.

There are simply things so vast and amazing out there that the human mind doesn't grasp them. Science is one way to begin to understand them; religion is another. It's not either/or; it's both.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 08:03:29 pm by Altair »
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Gilbride

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 08:02:49 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;93549
In a hypothetical world where most people are polytheists trying to convert the heretical atheists, what facts would a polytheist bring to the table to prove gods exist?


It's honestly hard to imagine such a world. I don't think it's possible or meaningful to "prove" the existence or non-existence of deities. You either experience them or you don't.

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 08:17:18 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;93560
It's worth adding that providing an actual polytheistic perspective to the standard skeptic flamewar is a good way of getting stepped around as if one is covered in a Somebody Else's Problem Field.  As far as I can tell, the standard skeptic flamewar is a set-piece dance with prescribed choreography, and anyone who doesn't follow the strict set of known sound bites is roundly ignored.

 
This.

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Collinsky

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 11:54:25 pm »
Quote from: Altair;93571
I like your question, and I like how Randall answered it. Here's an answer that ends up in a similar place, though perhaps this answer is more applicable to the softer forms of polytheism, like mine.

Your question implies a tension--"do gods exist, or don't they?"--that for me simply isn't there. My view is, "something exists." This is a view about which both the scientifically minded atheist and the polytheist can agree.

Science is one way of exploring that something, and delivers objective results that can be replicated: empirical truth.

Religion in general (in my case, a very soft polytheism) is another way of exploring that something, and it delivers poetic results that are intensely personal. These are not empirical, should not be taken literally (the tragic error of the fundamentalist), and shouldn't even be considered in the same way as scientific insights. And yet these religious insights can also deliver truth.

There are simply things so vast and amazing out there that the human mind doesn't grasp them. Science is one way to begin to understand them; religion is another. It's not either/or; it's both.


I absolutely love this response. As an atheist, I can get completely on board with this.
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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 06:56:14 am »
Quote from: Altair;93571
I like your question, and I like how Randall answered it. Here's an answer that ends up in a similar place, though perhaps this answer is more applicable to the softer forms of polytheism, like mine.

Your question implies a tension--"do gods exist, or don't they?"--that for me simply isn't there. My view is, "something exists." This is a view about which both the scientifically minded atheist and the polytheist can agree.

Science is one way of exploring that something, and delivers objective results that can be replicated: empirical truth.

Religion in general (in my case, a very soft polytheism) is another way of exploring that something, and it delivers poetic results that are intensely personal. These are not empirical, should not be taken literally (the tragic error of the fundamentalist), and shouldn't even be considered in the same way as scientific insights. And yet these religious insights can also deliver truth.

There are simply things so vast and amazing out there that the human mind doesn't grasp them. Science is one way to begin to understand them; religion is another. It's not either/or; it's both.

 
*cheers* like I say, they're different toolboxes.  Science answers a different set of QUESTIONS than religion.  Trying to use science to answer some of these questions is just as futile as trying to turn a screw with a hammer.  And vice-versa, of course.

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 08:25:23 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;93560
As far as I can tell, the standard skeptic flamewar is a set-piece dance with prescribed choreography, and anyone who doesn't follow the strict set of known sound bites is roundly ignored.

LOL, very true. Some have looked at me like I was an alien when I pointed out that the (philosopical) Problem of Evil (a large debate point in arguments over the existence/non-existence of the JCI God) simply isn't a problem for a typical polytheist as they have no deity who claims to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, perfect and is somehow responsible for everything that happens in reality.
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Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 11:19:03 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;93553
Is there any particular reason that the polytheists in this particular world would care?  It's a common trait of historical polytheisms that of course other people don't worship their gods, that's one of the ways you know they're other people, not our people.


Well, historically, some cultures dominated by polytheism DID care, as with the Roman Republic, which massacred Christians for not making sacrifices to the deified emperors for a while.

Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 11:22:38 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;93560
It's worth adding that providing an actual polytheistic perspective to the standard skeptic flamewar is a good way of getting stepped around as if one is covered in a Somebody Else's Problem Field.  As far as I can tell, the standard skeptic flamewar is a set-piece dance with prescribed choreography, and anyone who doesn't follow the strict set of known sound bites is roundly ignored.


Hm, yes, the science vs. religion debates in the magazines I've read have gotten old. What would be interesting is taking up Carl Sagan's challenge of figuring out how many of the gods actually exist, but no one's touched that as far as I know.

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 11:54:07 am »
Quote from: Materialist;93669
Well, historically, some cultures dominated by polytheism DID care, as with the Roman Republic, which massacred Christians for not making sacrifices to the deified emperors for a while.

 
Which is not a concern about belief, it is a concern about social conformity: more specifically, a matter of social conformity that was taken as an indication of whether or not someone is potentially traitorous.
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Materialist

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Re: Polytheism and Science
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 11:55:17 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;93648
*cheers* like I say, they're different toolboxes.  Science answers a different set of QUESTIONS than religion.  Trying to use science to answer some of these questions is just as futile as trying to turn a screw with a hammer.  And vice-versa, of course.


This reminds me of another thing. A scientist named Stephen Jay Gould made up this thing called "Non-overlapping Magisteria," that science and religion answers different things, as you've said, so the two shouldn't pester each other.

Along with a lot of other skeptics, I think such boundaries need to be taken down, and religious claims investigated. My own reasons for doing this comes from studying the works of mythologist Joseph Campbell, who said somewhere that the conflict is not between science and religion, but between Bronze Age science and Modern science. Another thing he said, from reading "The Hero's Journey," is that religion and mythology is about reconciling oneself to reality. Telling people to pray to a magical creature in a quartz crystal to cure gout has no place in this world anymore, in my opinion, so I do judge religions.

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