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Author Topic: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?  (Read 17849 times)

carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #120 on: August 09, 2014, 01:29:10 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;155185
Are you talking about the people in the article, or the people in this thread? Because this is incredibly dismissive and rude to those of us who are Native who DID respond to you in this thread about OUR cultural traditions and religious practices, if you are talking about us.

Why would I be writing about the people who contributed to the thread? War Bonnets were mentioned in the context of possible appropriation. I'm from the old school social forum convention where one answers to the post, not the poster. Perhaps things have changed. And just a by the by, it might be polite before you start dividing the 'ours' and 'yours' to inquire into whether the writer ( in this case myself) might have some personal experience .


 
Quote from: Nyktipolos;155185
If it's true that the festival organizers didn't contact anyone from a Plains culture, then that is wrong; they need to be connecting with the community that symbolism comes from. However, that does not negate the fact people using headdresses who have not properly earned them is incredibly wrong and disrespectful, especially in my own culture (Metis and Cree, and Ojibwe, the community I most interact with professionally). There are many more people who are against the cultural appropriation of our culture than those who say it does no harm.

See above.

Quote from: Nyktipolos;155185
How do we know Ernie Heavy Runner has checked in with his community before he made that interview? The same argument used against us can also be used against him. Also, why did the Vancouver Sun contact someone from Montana? What is his connection to Canadian Plains groups? Is it merely because someone was closer (except that there are plenty of Cree and Metis people living in Vancouver), or because someone went looking for someone of a dissenting opinion, or someone who would be willing to justify the appropriative actions of non-Native people?

It would be going back on something has already been mentioned ( that all 'First Nations people are not homogeneous) to assume you would know about the 'Montana' connection. It has to do with the geography of the treaty lands. My cousin is married to a Heavy Runner in Lethbridge. I don't know about your family/clan/tribal connections,but mine never did pay much attention to the Canadian/American border definitions.  

But I wouldn't presume  someone from a West Coast tribe automatically know about tribes a thousand miles away. They might, they might not.
For that matter, there is no reason why one opinion here is more important or authoritative than another persons even if he or she is from a plains tribe.

I think you are looking for offense where none is, was or is ever intended. I don't share all your opinions on what constitutes cultural appropriation but that's about the extent of it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 01:30:45 am by carillion »

stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2014, 01:57:33 am »
Quote from: carillion;155205

It would be going back on something has already been mentioned ( that all 'First Nations people are not homogeneous) to assume you would know about the 'Montana' connection. It has to do with the geography of the treaty lands. My cousin is married to a Heavy Runner in Lethbridge. I don't know about your family/clan/tribal connections,but mine never did pay much attention to the Canadian/American border definitions.  

 
So the cousin of the spouse of a Native person should have the same weight in the conversation as multiple actual Native people?

I'm sorry, what?!
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2014, 02:56:38 am »
Quote from: carillion;155205

I think you are looking for offense where none is, was or is ever intended. I don't share all your opinions on what constitutes cultural appropriation but that's about the extent of it.

 
So let's say I'm swinging my arms carelessly, as hard as I can, just to exercise them. I hit you in the face. I tell you that no injury is, was, or is ever intended by my arm-swinging, and that you should get over it. Does your bruising just magically disappear?

I didn't think so.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

SunflowerP

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2014, 03:29:09 am »
Quote from: carillion;155205
I think you are looking for offense where none is, was or is ever intended.

 
'Offense' is your word choice; Nyk didn't use it, nor do I see any evidence that it's the word she would choose. But it's interesting that you would choose to bring it into the discussion.

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carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2014, 03:30:07 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;155208
So the cousin of the spouse of a Native person should have the same weight in the conversation as multiple actual Native people?

I'm sorry, what?!


The point of what I was writing is that the Canadian/American border does not comprehend treaty lands. The easiest way is to read about the so-called 'Blackfoot Confederacy'. The actual cultural ins and outs of it are complicated but I was responding to an objection of a plains First Nations person in Montana being contacted and why it is often a spurious objection.

And I don't know if it is the lateness of the hour or inadvertent discourtesy, but please read my post and consider it before you decide to displace *my* cultural identity.

I could readily take offense and goodness knows I've had a lifetime of such talk but there is no point. But seriously, I've not attacked anybody, I see no reason for people to attack me . What you wrote was just plain rude but I will assume it's the lateness of the hour and perhaps you were a mite careless in your reading.

carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2014, 03:32:57 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;155216
'Offense' is your word choice; Nyk didn't use it, nor do I see any evidence that it's the word she would choose. But it's interesting that you would choose to bring it into the discussion.

Sunflower


I was responding to this "Are you talking about the people in the article, or the people in this thread? Because this is incredibly dismissive and rude to those of us who are Native who DID respond to you in this thread about OUR cultural traditions and religious practices, if you are talking about us."

Being dismissive and rude is offensive by my definition.  I was trying to take those ideas *out* of the discussions so no offense could be taken.

carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2014, 03:35:16 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;155213
So let's say I'm swinging my arms carelessly, as hard as I can, just to exercise them. I hit you in the face. I tell you that no injury is, was, or is ever intended by my arm-swinging, and that you should get over it. Does your bruising just magically disappear?

I didn't think so.


If you are equating having a difference of opinion in a debate to inflicting physical injury, I would suggest that not only is it out of context with the debate, but hyperbole as well.

stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2014, 03:53:47 am »
Quote from: carillion;155219
If you are equating having a difference of opinion in a debate to inflicting physical injury, I would suggest that not only is it out of context with the debate, but hyperbole as well.


 
The word you're looking for is "metaphor," sweetie.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2014, 04:00:53 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;155222
The word you're looking for is "metaphor," sweetie.


My response stands.

And please,I am not your 'sweetie'. Unless used in a close personal context, it is both patronizing and infantilizing.

I am a new member here so perhaps I'm not au fait with how things are done here. Is your style of posting as you have been doing the proper form on this forum? I answered your questions re: why the response from Montana was not out of place.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 04:06:28 am by carillion »

SunflowerP

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2014, 04:10:53 am »
Quote from: carillion;155217
But seriously, I've not attacked anybody, I see no reason for people to attack me . What you wrote was just plain rude but I will assume it's the lateness of the hour and perhaps you were a mite careless in your reading.

 
[mod=Cool Down, Please]
Carillion,

I don't see anyone 'attacking' you. If you think someone has violated forum rules in how they've posted to you, report the post (using the triangular button in the lower left-hand corner of the post) - but keep in mind that staff do not take kindly to frivolous use of the post reporting system, including reports of posts that don't violate our rules but that the person reporting thinks are 'not nice enough'.

Everyone,

The thread's getting a little heated.  If you find  yourself getting too frustrated, please consider taking a break from the  conversation to cool down--or even dropping the subject entirely, if  necessary.  If one particular poster is getting on your nerves, you may  also want to consider putting them on Ignore (provided they aren't  staff).  We don't object to heated discussion here, of course, but at a  certain point it becomes unproductive.  Please remember that we're here  to discuss issues, not personalities.  If you can't do that--take a  break.

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2014, 04:19:45 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;155222
The word you're looking for is "metaphor," sweetie.

 
Quote from: carillion;155224
And please,I am not your 'sweetie'. Unless used in a close personal context, it is both patronizing and infantilizing.

 
A Reminder:
Stephy,

Carillion is correct; use of endearments to people one doesn't know well is inappropriate, especially when one is disputing something they've said. You've been on TC long enough that you should know we take that position.

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2014, 04:26:41 am »
Quote from: carillion;155224


 
A Reminder:
Also, Carillion,

Our rules  generally prohibit editing after more than 2-3 minutes.  (Correcting  typos or minor mistakes is OK, but don't forget to fill in the "Reason  for Editing" box so that we know what's going on.)  This is because  after that long, several people have already read what you've written,  and they won't see the changes you make.  Because of that, they will  have difficulty following the conversation when someone replies to your  new, updated post.

If you need to correct or add anything  significant after those 2-3 minutes, you should just reply to yourself  and give the correction or additional information in the new post.   Double-posting is not considered bad behaviour here, and this will help  keep everyone on the same page, so to speak.

This is particularly true when a thread has become heated, and new posts are being added rapidly, as is the case with this one.

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Atehequa

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2014, 09:33:12 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;154579
Everyone should have access, regardless of race or ethnicity. That's what you're not getting.


That all depends if the other party involved is going to allow that access. Of course thinking one should have access and actually attaining it is two different things. Just because someone tells another he or she are obligated to share doesn't mean it's going to happen. People can either accept that or else not.
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stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2014, 10:13:23 am »
Quote from: Atehequa;155235
That all depends if the other party involved is going to allow that access. Of course thinking one should have access and actually attaining it is two different things. Just because someone tells another he or she are obligated to share doesn't mean it's going to happen. People can either accept that or else not.


 
Couldn't agree more, especially when it's cultural stuff we've had to fight like hell to keep. That's why I don't really care if they mean any harm. When I've had to fight my whole life just to have my identity acknowledged, and my nation has fewer people than my college, and our language is effectively dead with no living native speakers, I don't really care whether someone else is bothered by random white person snatching up cultural shinies from other groups in similar positions without bothering to understand them. It lessens all of us for one nation's culture to be so bastardized, because as different as we are, the depressing fact is that to mainstream society we really do all look alike. So because of that perception of Native culture as some kind of monolith, which is incorrect but still painfully common, I feel like further compromises on the sovereignty and cultural integrity of one nation hurts all of us. I know this is a subject that's important to you as well, and I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Atehequa

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2014, 12:31:16 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;155240
Couldn't agree more, especially when it's cultural stuff we've had to fight like hell to keep. That's why I don't really care if they mean any harm. When I've had to fight my whole life just to have my identity acknowledged, and my nation has fewer people than my college, and our language is effectively dead with no living native speakers, I don't really care whether someone else is bothered by random white person snatching up cultural shinies from other groups in similar positions without bothering to understand them. It lessens all of us for one nation's culture to be so bastardized, because as different as we are, the depressing fact is that to mainstream society we really do all look alike. So because of that perception of Native culture as some kind of monolith, which is incorrect but still painfully common, I feel like further compromises on the sovereignty and cultural integrity of one nation hurts all of us. I know this is a subject that's important to you as well, and I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.


We as indigenous people have to reflect upon our own acts of cultural appropriation. A good example are the pre-Colombian Cherokee. They along with the Cheroenhaka and Tuscarora broke off from the main 'Iroquoian' drift and adopted many cultural traits from southeastern people such as the Muskogee and eastern Siouan peoples like the Catawba and Occaneechi. The same holds true with my people who adopted much from the Cherokee and Muskogee people during our time in Tennessee and what is now called western Georgia/South Carolina.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

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