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Author Topic: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?  (Read 6718 times)

veggiewolf

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 01:16:24 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;141307
...

Why you, as a Hellenic, as getting so excited is beyond me, but this will be my final word, so you can get a nice glass of something and calm down :)

 
Not Randall, but perhaps it is because religion bashing is not acceptable?
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Nyktipolos

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 01:20:31 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;141307
The pentateuch is hardly Jewish, since it's shared (with a few variants) by the Samaritans. The earlier historical books contain much material that predates the establishment of Judaism as a distinct religion. Thus the OT is partly Jewish in origin and adopted and adapted for Judaism.

 
After poking around Wikipedia for a bit to get myself more familiar with this, as this statement seemed rather unbelievable to me, it looks like the Samaritans have their own Pentateuch, a written version for their own cultural beliefs that stem from the same source as used in the Torah. Of course they are similar (see Stephy's post as to why), but it's about as similar as the Samaritan Pentateuch as the OT is to the Torah. It doesn't invalidate the importance of it's role in the Torah and to Judaism, IMHO.
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RandallS

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 02:11:00 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;141307
Why you, as a Hellenic, as getting so excited is beyond me, but this will be my final word, so you can get a nice glass of something and calm down :)

Excited? Not particularly. Annoyed at minority opinion being stated as if it were established fact -- especially when said opinion seems like it is being used to religion bash. The fact that my religion isn't the one being bashed does not matter. If this is a problem for you, perhaps you need to find a message board that doesn't mind religion bashing to visit instead of TC?
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Valentine

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 03:42:07 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;141307
The pentateuch is hardly Jewish


Aaaaand there we go.

Quote
Why you, as a Hellenic, as getting so excited is beyond me, but this will be my final word, so you can get a nice glass of something and calm down :)

 
Why is it always the people spouting the most mishegas who always manage to be most smugly condescending?
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stephyjh

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2014, 01:02:14 am »
Quote from: Valentine;141318
Aaaaand there we go.


 
Why is it always the people spouting the most mishegas who always manage to be most smugly condescending?

 
As usual, "You must spread some reputation around," etc.
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That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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MattyG

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2014, 02:02:44 pm »
Quote from: Elizabeth;141124
I have struggled with this in the past, as I was raised Christian and am once again part of a Christian faith (Orthodox).

I can no longer accept just have faith as an answer, because I keep coming back to square one.

How did YHWH, one of the sons of El in the Canaanite pantheon, become Creator and Ultimate God?

In Deut. 32:8, sons of God is used when it is said that YHWH was given his portion, by El Elyon (Almighty God). I have read many studies on this issue, both to prove it and disprove it. This one disputes the polytheistic view, and the citations seem sound: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/05-deuteronomy/text/articles/heiser-deut32-bs.htm

Obviously, anyone coming from the Christian side will want to dispute that YHWH was tribal. But evidence seems to strongly point this way.

Does anyone have any resources that may be helpful?

 
I think you might like to read the book God Against the Gods by Jonathan Kirsch. It's a history about the rise of monotheism starting with the Aten cult in Egypt to the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire. It was a really interesting read, and my only real complaint with it was that it didn't include the rise of Islam as well, but it just wasn't within the scope of the book. Warning: It is a book with an agenda, but show me one that doesn't have an agenda.

Airelinn

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2014, 11:55:35 am »
Quote from: Elizabeth;141124
I have struggled with this in the past, as I was raised Christian and am once again part of a Christian faith (Orthodox).

I can no longer accept just have faith as an answer, because I keep coming back to square one.

How did YHWH, one of the sons of El in the Canaanite pantheon, become Creator and Ultimate God?

In Deut. 32:8, sons of God is used when it is said that YHWH was given his portion, by El Elyon (Almighty God). I have read many studies on this issue, both to prove it and disprove it. This one disputes the polytheistic view, and the citations seem sound: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/05-deuteronomy/text/articles/heiser-deut32-bs.htm

Obviously, anyone coming from the Christian side will want to dispute that YHWH was tribal. But evidence seems to strongly point this way.

Does anyone have any resources that may be helpful?


I didn't even see this thread, and I was wondering the exact same thing so I started a thread about the subject yesterday.  Super interesting subject...I like hearing everyone's ideas and input about it! : )

http://ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?9693-Why-The-One-God-Rule&p=147531#post147531

^there's the link to that thread, if anyone is interested in hearing those folks' take on it too. :)

Airelinn

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2014, 12:33:09 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;141145

Personally I take Jesus as turning the Jews from the false elevation of Yahweh back to the true worship of God. He teaches his disciples to pray "Our Father": is Yahweh ever addressed as father? In Canaanite texts Ilu/El is Father of Mankind. On the cross, he prayed "Eli", not "Adonai". But this view is very controversial.


I was with you until this point, where you lost me, David. I feel like this is kind of a modern and maybe even overcomplicated way to look at this issue. Yahweh didn't start out as a Father-type deity, but a militaristic one. In Canaanite text, as you stated, El was the Father of Mankind and he was more of that fertility god type. There are some debates about what, exactly, that name indicates. The word, "El" is a sumerian word for "lord", which is what the Jewish elohim, Yahweh, came to be called after demonstrating a more fertility-type aspect. "Lord" was not an uncommon way to address one's father until that last couple hundred years or so.  Basically, I don't think it's accurate to say Jesus "taught people to pray our father" because they pretty much already were. What he did teach, however, was a more Axial Age type message.

Quote from: DavidMcCann;141307
The pentateuch is hardly Jewish, since it's shared (with a few variants) by the Samaritans. The earlier historical books contain much material that predates the establishment of Judaism as a distinct religion. Thus the OT is partly Jewish in origin and adopted and adapted for Judaism.

 
This one was like a mental tongue twister to me (and based on reading others' replies to this I don't think I'm the only one).  I agreed to everyone's arguments against this point, but I just wanted to phrase it in a different way because, tbh, I don't think any of us are entirely in disagreement.

I see it this way: tacos are considered to be Mexican food. If you want a taco, you go to a Mexican food restaurant. (Sure, you can go to Burger King, Carl's Jr, or Jack in the Box but those ones are gross hehe.) The thing about tacos, however, is that they're technically not Mexican. They're Mexican-American. The Idea of the taco came from Mexico, but it has since been morphed to suit American tastes.  We still, however, consider it Mexican for the most part since it's roots are of that heritage.
Does that make sense? Now someone's going to come in here and present evidence that tacos are indeed, entirely Mexican. But w/e...you guys get my gist. lol

Louisvillian

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2014, 02:15:10 am »
Quote from: Elizabeth;141124
How did YHWH, one of the sons of El in the Canaanite pantheon, become Creator and Ultimate God?

The main of it has to do with the tumultuous period in Jewish history where a significant part of the Hebrew population was uprooted from Judea and carted off to Mesopotamia. Scholars had to come to grips with how their tribal god could remain their god when they had been so forcefully dispossessed of their tribal lands and culture. The response was generally to elevate their tribal highest god to the position of being the only god, and they fought very hard to retain their culture in the face of being strangers in a strange land. When the Hebrews were finally returned back to Judea and allowed to govern themselves, they developed a sort of ethnic-nationalist-religious zeal that focused heavily on Yahweh and the covenant between him and the tribe. It kinda snowballed over the course of an era from the 500s BCE to the first century CE called Second Temple Judaism, where this zeal gave birth to religious-revivalist/restorationist movements including messianic, prophetic, and apocalyptic sects. One of which developed into early Christianity in the latter part of this period.

Rhaethe

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Re: How did a tribal god (YHWH) become God of All?
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2014, 02:59:27 pm »
Quote from: Airelinn;147537

I see it this way: tacos are considered to be Mexican food. If you want a taco, you go to a Mexican food restaurant. (Sure, you can go to Burger King, Carl's Jr, or Jack in the Box but those ones are gross hehe.) The thing about tacos, however, is that they're technically not Mexican. They're Mexican-American. The Idea of the taco came from Mexico, but it has since been morphed to suit American tastes.  We still, however, consider it Mexican for the most part since it's roots are of that heritage.
Does that make sense? Now someone's going to come in here and present evidence that tacos are indeed, entirely Mexican. But w/e...you guys get my gist. lol

 
/tangent

I just read something about that very subject the other day!  I have no clue how factual this blog article is, but it was a fun read.  

http://roguepriest.net/2014/05/21/how-are-authentic-mexican-tacos-different-from-american-tacos/

/end_tangent

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