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Author Topic: Hostility to Christianity  (Read 16550 times)

NightFury326

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #195 on: April 14, 2017, 07:01:58 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183083
I'm just wondering if some of the occasional Pagan hostility toward Christianity was more a matter of the Christianity that people grew up with and not Christianity itself.

I grew up in the United Church of Canada. It is LGBT friendly (the current moderator is a lesbian and her predecessor was a gay man), divorce, sex outside marriage and remarriage were OK, social justice was a big deal, God was all-loving and sin was never, ever mentioned. The Christianity I knew was friendly if somewhat gutless. The idea of a judgmental, patriarchal god is completely foreign to my experience.

I feel Pagans can sometimes be very hard on and make blanket statements about Christianity, while Buddhism and Judaism get something of a free pass.


I grew up in an Evangelical Lutheran Church, which was great for me at the time. I have many happy memories of growing up, going to Sunday School, and all the normal Lutheran things that came with it. I enjoyed Sunday School growing up and never had any problems with it because my teachers were all amazing.  I did choir etc, and enjoyed it.

It was after going to a Catholic high school, being in a Baptist group in college, and seeing just how extreme some take the bible (i.e the legalistic ones), that I slowly began to question it all.

It took some hard times to really get me far away from the broad range of Christianity.  I just found that I don't relate to any of it and the idea of an omnipresent deity watching over my every move and thought seemed really outlandish. Also, the way they are portrayed in parts of the bible make them seem like someone I wouldn't want to bother knowing.

Now I just have this extreme distaste for the broad cultural part of it, even if some of my closest friends are Christians. (I will unfriend/block anyone on social media who uses their faith as an excuse to bully- i.e "why don't you ask the Lord what HE thinks!"- so rude).For me, it's the way the (USA) culture has warped it into a way of controlling people that I really can't stand (atheists can't even run for a governmental office because of propaganda about how extreme one person is).  It's just the whole monotheistic idea of a stalker like god- eh... I'd sooner look into what the pagan deities represented in their respective cultures, even if i see them as archetypes rather than deities.

On that note- I still enjoy Christmas time and enjoy the traditional hymns that come with it. :) :)
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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #196 on: April 16, 2017, 09:54:34 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183083
I'm just wondering if some of the occasional Pagan hostility toward Christianity was more a matter of the Christianity that people grew up with and not Christianity itself.

I grew up in the United Church of Canada. It is LGBT friendly (the current moderator is a lesbian and her predecessor was a gay man), divorce, sex outside marriage and remarriage were OK, social justice was a big deal, God was all-loving and sin was never, ever mentioned. The Christianity I knew was friendly if somewhat gutless. The idea of a judgmental, patriarchal god is completely foreign to my experience.

I feel Pagans can sometimes be very hard on and make blanket statements about Christianity, while Buddhism and Judaism get something of a free pass.

 
I tend to think it is, yes, or perhaps what the local dominant Christian culture is like.  Even though I am engaged with the Episcopal tradition I am disgusted with most Christianity here in the Bible belt.

My early religious exposure was to Oneness Pentecostalism.  I think leaving it was more traumatic than practicing the religion itself.  I was about 14 when I left mentally, but later lived with some relatives and was forced to attend, and that's when I saw the sinister side that can crop up.

I had to be exposed to the diversity within Christianity before I stopped unfairly characterizing and scapegoating it for all the world's problems.  I was about 15 when that occurred.

I can be somewhat ambivalent about my relationship with orthodox Christianity these days.  I mainly stay because I need the community and there is little else here, and the tangible sacraments -- being touched, anointed, blessed, eating, drinking -- help my depression.  When I have a difficult time with doctrine I simply think of it as part of my tribe's ways -- which the Episcopal Church gives me space to do -- and focus more on building my solitary rituals.
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Cinder

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #197 on: April 19, 2017, 01:33:05 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183083
I'm just wondering if some of the occasional Pagan hostility toward Christianity was more a matter of the Christianity that people grew up with and not Christianity itself.

I grew up in the United Church of Canada. It is LGBT friendly (the current moderator is a lesbian and her predecessor was a gay man), divorce, sex outside marriage and remarriage were OK, social justice was a big deal, God was all-loving and sin was never, ever mentioned. The Christianity I knew was friendly if somewhat gutless. The idea of a judgmental, patriarchal god is completely foreign to my experience.

I feel Pagans can sometimes be very hard on and make blanket statements about Christianity, while Buddhism and Judaism get something of a free pass.


Sure, pagans and atheists can sometimes be "hard" on Christianity. I feel that this is bred from their personal negative experiences with Christianity. And since America was a nation founded (ostensibly) on Christian principles, escaping the memory of those negative experiences has got to be hard.
 
I also feel that because there's a hard-core fundamentalist branch of Christians that specifically uses faith and the Bible to give some sort of credence to their bigoted beliefs, people tend to be more negative toward them. Because so many more people are some flavor of Christian (statistically) than Buddhist or Jewish, this type of behavior stands out so much more than, say, the problem with racism that exists within the Heathen community.

Your average American may never have had a negative experience with, for example, a racist  (or other "ist") Wiccan. However, your average American is likely to have at least read or heard of bad experiences with sexist, racist (etc) Christians.

I can understand how such things would leave a bad taste in people's mouths.

Jabberwocky

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #198 on: April 19, 2017, 02:56:24 pm »
Quote from: Cinder;205146
Sure, pagans and atheists can sometimes be "hard" on Christianity. I feel that this is bred from their personal negative experiences with Christianity.
 

 
In that case though, I think they're not so much pagans and atheists as they are Christian apostates.  They still define themselves primarily in terms of their relationship to Christianity and their spiritual (or lack of) beliefs are still defined by that.
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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #199 on: April 19, 2017, 10:14:57 pm »
Quote from: Cinder;205146
And since America was a nation founded (ostensibly) on Christian principles,

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

June 10, 1797, signed by John Adams, who I expect would know.

(The treaty was superceded by a later one that did not have that language in it, but.)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 10:16:44 pm by Darkhawk »
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Allaya

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #200 on: April 20, 2017, 05:59:39 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205191
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

June 10, 1797, signed by John Adams, who I expect would know.

(The treaty was superceded by a later one that did not have that language in it, but.)

 
I was just about to post the same thing when I scrolled down a bit further and saw you had it covered. :)
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Yei

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #201 on: April 20, 2017, 06:48:48 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205191
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

June 10, 1797, signed by John Adams, who I expect would know.

(The treaty was superceded by a later one that did not have that language in it, but.)

 
That might be true of the United States, but earlier settlers in North America certainly had religious motivations. John Winthrop's 'Shining City on a Hill,' springs to mind.

Cinder

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #202 on: April 20, 2017, 10:39:15 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205191
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

June 10, 1797, signed by John Adams, who I expect would know.

(The treaty was superceded by a later one that did not have that language in it, but.)

 
I feel like this is something that was done in theory more than that it's an actual reality in the U.S.

IIRC, the only President who wasn't Christian was J. F Kennedy who was Catholic- and there was some worry over that. Many political things are done because of "Christian" beliefs. You'd never see a politician say something like "I am Zeus-fearing, and the problems with our country is that not enough other people are".

What I'm trying to get at is that Christianity has had and continues to have a huge influence on the U.S, really like no other religion has had.

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #203 on: April 20, 2017, 10:51:15 am »
Quote from: Cinder;205228
I feel like this is something that was done in theory more than that it's an actual reality in the U.S.


That does not change the fact that the US was not in fact founded on "Christian principles".

Quote
IIRC, the only President who wasn't Christian was J. F Kennedy who was Catholic-


Duuuuuuuude.  Catholics are Christian.  Catholics are one of the oldest branches of Christianity.  WTF?

Quote
What I'm trying to get at is that Christianity has had and continues to have a huge influence on the U.S, really like no other religion has had.

 
That is true.  That is not the same as "founded on CHristian principles".
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Jainarayan

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #204 on: April 20, 2017, 10:58:16 am »
Quote from: Cinder;205228
I feel like this is something that was done in theory more than that it's an actual reality in the U.S.


The US is a nation largely of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation. There is no official state-sanctioned religion. The First Amendment sees to that.

Quote
IIRC, the only President who wasn't Christian was J. F Kennedy who was Catholic


Catholics are Christian.

Quote
What I'm trying to get at is that Christianity has had and continues to have a huge influence on the U.S, really like no other religion has had.

 
It's the western overculture. That doesn't make it the foundation. And quite honestly, what are these "Christian principles" the US is allegedly founded on? There is no mention of God, the Bible, Jesus, or any other religious reference in the US Constitution. The  US Constitution is the highest and overriding law of the US. The Declaration mentions 'Creator', but two things need to be kept in mind:
  • It does not specify the Creator or God from any religion;
  • The DoI is not a law, it is a letter, an essay.

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #205 on: April 20, 2017, 11:17:31 am »
Quote from: Jainarayan;205230
The Declaration mentions 'Creator', but two things need to be kept in mind:
  • It does not specify the Creator or God from any religion;
  • The DoI is not a law, it is a letter, an essay.

 
And it was written by a Deist, who created an expurgated version of the gospels without all the miraculous stuff in, including the Resurrection, which I believe most Christians would consider pretty important to the whole identification as Christian thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
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Jainarayan

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #206 on: April 20, 2017, 11:32:13 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205231
And it was written by a Deist, who created an expurgated version of the gospels without all the miraculous stuff in, including the Resurrection, which I believe most Christians would consider pretty important to the whole identification as Christian thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

 
I have a copy of the Jefferson Bible. :)  It's not unlike the red letter editions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_letter_edition Rather than calling it Christianity, it's referred to as Jesuism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism I believe that is what Christianity truly is, and should be.

Cinder

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #207 on: April 20, 2017, 12:04:28 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205229
That does not change the fact that the US was not in fact founded on "Christian principles".



Duuuuuuuude.  Catholics are Christian.  Catholics are one of the oldest branches of Christianity.  WTF?


 
That is true.  That is not the same as "founded on CHristian principles".

 
I am aware that Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, having been raised one. I simply made a differentiation due to the fact that around the time he was running for President, Americans in general certainly seemed to view Catholics as quite apart from any other branch of Christianity.

Someone already mentioned that going back to early American history, certain places were founded on Christian principles. Regardless of the hand-waving around it, the fact that the foundation of America was and continues to be influenced by Christianity is true regardless of whether or not it is technically said to be. I could stand at my house and tell you all day that my house is on a foundation of freedom, but that doesn't change the fact that it actually has a concrete foundation.

Cinder

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #208 on: April 20, 2017, 12:13:02 pm »
Quote from: Jainarayan;205230
The US is a nation largely of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation. There is no official state-sanctioned religion. The First Amendment sees to that.



Catholics are Christian.


 
It's the western overculture. That doesn't make it the foundation. And quite honestly, what are these "Christian principles" the US is allegedly founded on? There is no mention of God, the Bible, Jesus, or any other religious reference in the US Constitution. The  US Constitution is the highest and overriding law of the US. The Declaration mentions 'Creator', but two things need to be kept in mind:
  • It does not specify the Creator or God from any religion;
  • The DoI is not a law, it is a letter, an essay.

 
This is all true. However, I'm not coming at it from the standpoint of it being written into the constitution or anything of that nature. Rather, I'm looking at it from the point of view of things like the Scope's trial.

Laws are made and passed due to religious (Christian) beliefs. The attempt to make abortion illegal (and in many cases the successful attempts at making it as inconvenient as possible), are often based off of people's religious views. This is just one example.

I'm not saying Christianity is the official religion of the U.S, nor did I ever assert that. I'm simply using "foundation" here as a word meant to imply the huge effect Christianity has on the U.S and how it's intrinsically woven into its history.

Darkhawk

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Re: Hostility to Christianity
« Reply #209 on: April 20, 2017, 12:21:02 pm »
Quote from: Cinder;205241
I am aware that Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, having been raised one. I simply made a differentiation due to the fact that around the time he was running for President, Americans in general certainly seemed to view Catholics as quite apart from any other branch of Christianity.


Yes, some Protestants have a history of bigotry directed against non-Protestant Christians, but that does not mean that repeating the lie that "Catholic" is not "Christian" is a good thing to do.

It is worth noting that anti-Catholic bigotry of the time was hugely tied into nativism and anti-immigrant bigotry, particularly aimed against the Irish and Italians.  Basically it was the anti-Muslim and anti-Hispanic propaganda of its time.
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