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Author Topic: Gods as riddle  (Read 2917 times)

Darkhawk

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Gods as riddle
« on: September 17, 2018, 10:23:34 am »
A Brahmin I know vaguely linked to this article, which I found fascinating:
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/others/sunday-read/who-is-a-hindu-why-do-intellectuals-scorn-hindu-deities/amp_articleshow/65825546.cms

It seemed relevant to a lot of pagan discussions.  One of the ongoing theological boils I've seen a lot of over the years boils down to this sort of thing - is a god necessarily good? Is an imperial model of divinity appropriate?  Is divinity a moral status?  (Often from people who are claiming to be opposed to the machinations of Empire and free of the legacy of Christian theologizing, which I have often found... droll but wearisome.)

This image - of gods as puzzles, representations of ideas, explorations of concept, paradoxes to reconcile - is much more familiar to me from my own experience of the divine than the philosophical wankwrangling that emerges from trying to make pantheons suit a model often younger than they are.

Anyway, thought I'd throw the article out for people to chew on.
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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2018, 03:05:25 am »
Anyway, thought I'd throw the article out for people to chew on.

That article seems to hit the issue of God and Gods right on the nose, at least for Hinduism, and probably lots of other religions. I know for a fact that the Inca Gods, the Greek Gods, and the Japanese Gods are all similarly imperfect and flawed. I think lots of religions have Gods that are more... human? than the God of Abrahamic religions. 
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2018, 07:48:15 pm »
Anyway, thought I'd throw the article out for people to chew on.

I couldn't agree with this article more. My experience of the gods aligns with this nearly perfectly; they are rarely moral paragons, but rather exist as complex conundrums whose flaws (from our perspective) are perhaps most illuminating about the human condition and the universe we live in. in fact, what I consider the best of my mythos revolves around an instance where the gods screw up so badly that we mortals have to put things right.

I also agree that the pervasive influence of Abrahamic monotheism is the source of much of the misunderstanding of the gods.

Specifically on the Hindu mythos: The complexity is what I love about it, even though my knowledge is surface and scant. Take the Greek mythos--which is quite complex, IMHO--and then allow it to continue to evolve as an active part of the culture for another 2,000 years, and then you might have something that approaches the Hindu mythos. If I wasn't a pagan with a healthy relationship to my own gods, I'd probably be a Hindu. (That'd be a sight!)
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
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The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Hariti

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 09:32:56 pm »
Take the Greek mythos--which is quite complex, IMHO--and then allow it to continue to evolve as an active part of the culture for another 2,000 years, and then you might have something that approaches the Hindu mythos.

I think that's a rather illuminating way to look at the Hindu religion. It's something like a post-pagan religious tradition; it has it's roots in the original, ancient folk traditions of various parts of India, but it's existed so long that it's modern form is as different from it's medieval form as it's medieval form is from it's classical form (which is itself different from the Bronze Age religions from which it arises). The level of continuity in Hinduism is only matched by Judaism and Zoroastrianism, and those religions suffered from levels of diaspora and suppression that Hinduism never had to deal with. It's had ~5500 years to evolve and change without ever being forcibly replaced, and with it's main competition coming from within rather than outside itself.

Buddhism and Islam both affected it, of course, as did Christianity, but these influences were short term compared to the lifespan of the religion, and only Buddhism ever eclipsed it as the majority religion of India (and that only for a couple of centuries).

It's a grand experiment in Human religion; how do people's beliefs change naturally if they're never violently disrupted or supplanted by outsiders.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

arete

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 01:13:33 pm »
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/others/sunday-read/who-is-a-hindu-why-do-intellectuals-scorn-hindu-deities/amp_articleshow/65825546.cms

from the article:
Quote
Hinduism doesn’t comply with preconceived notions of what god and religion should be.

Krishna steals women’s clothes. Ram abandoned his wife. Shiva smokes narcotics. Durga kills a buffalo. Hindus worship weird gods! These are the comments I hear from people who have moved on from Hinduism, embracing other faiths. But often, also from well-read Hindus.

Hinduism embarrasses these intellectual Hindus as it doesn’t comply with their preconceived notions of what god and religion should be.

I totaly disagree with the article. Gods are highly moral and perfect. These are the Gods' Mythology and the purpose of Mythology is for us to understand the world. There is absolutely no way that Gods have vices. Mythology needs decode to understand the world that's all.

Redfaery

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 01:34:58 pm »
from the article:
I totaly disagree with the article. Gods are highly moral and perfect. These are the Gods' Mythology and the purpose of Mythology is for us to understand the world. There is absolutely no way that Gods have vices. Mythology needs decode to understand the world that's all.
I mean, that's one way of approaching mythology, but I don't see how it follows that the gods are necessarily perfect. I'm Buddhist, so IMO nothing in cyclic existence is going to be perfect... (though there will be Buddhists who argue that point.)

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Hariti

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 03:17:47 pm »
I totaly disagree with the article. Gods are highly moral and perfect. These are the Gods' Mythology and the purpose of Mythology is for us to understand the world. There is absolutely no way that Gods have vices. Mythology needs decode to understand the world that's all.

That's fine, if you believe that. However, saying you disagree with the article is... odd... the article is explaining the mainstream Hindu worldview. You might disagree with that worldview, but disagreeing with the article makes it sound like the article is wrong about *Hinduism* rather than wrong about the Gods. The latter is debatable, and a valid point of view; the former is not.

This article captures the same sentiment that you would get from the *vast* majority of Brahmins, Yopis, and Sadhus in India.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Yei

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2018, 06:30:41 pm »
from the article:
I totaly disagree with the article. Gods are highly moral and perfect. These are the Gods' Mythology and the purpose of Mythology is for us to understand the world. There is absolutely no way that Gods have vices. Mythology needs decode to understand the world that's all.

I don't see how this is possible, irrespective of the purpose of mythology. Many gods take the roles of warriors and tricksters, which pretty much by definition are not 'moral.' A war god exists to kill enemies, and brutalise opponents. Trickery is obviously dubious, as tricksters take advantage of the proud and the foolish. Even gods of 'Justice' may not be moral, at least not by modern standards. It is worth point out that even the supposedly moral Christian God isn't even remotely 'moral' by any human standard. The idea that he/it is so should be regarded as essentially propaganda.

Honestly, I'm not even sure how 'morality' and 'perfection' could be applied to beings that exist beyond our reality. What even is 'perfection' anyway?

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 10:27:08 pm »
There is absolutely no way that Gods have vices.

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 12:48:02 am »
Gods are highly moral and perfect.

According to whose morals?
Pray drunk. Hex sober.
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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 03:22:30 pm »
According to whose morals?
Gods'. Gods create morals and we just follow.

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 03:38:50 pm »
I don't see how this is possible, irrespective of the purpose of mythology. Many gods take the roles of warriors and tricksters, which pretty much by definition are not 'moral.' A war god exists to kill enemies, and brutalise opponents. Trickery is obviously dubious, as tricksters take advantage of the proud and the foolish. Even gods of 'Justice' may not be moral, at least not by modern standards. It is worth point out that even the supposedly moral Christian God isn't even remotely 'moral' by any human standard. The idea that he/it is so should be regarded as essentially propaganda.

Honestly, I'm not even sure how 'morality' and 'perfection' could be applied to beings that exist beyond our reality. What even is 'perfection' anyway?
Gods don't exist beyond our reality. They are reality and it's them who make the morals. Mythology of Gods make the morals. An example is Loki and Baldr. Baldr is the god of peace. Loki kills Baldr. This is the mythology of the reality that peace is fragile. Loki isn't immoral. The death of Baldr is the reality gods gave to humans of fragile peace. Do you think fragile peace is immoral?

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 06:23:26 pm »
Gods don't exist beyond our reality. They are reality and it's them who make the morals. Mythology of Gods make the morals. An example is Loki and Baldr. Baldr is the god of peace. Loki kills Baldr. This is the mythology of the reality that peace is fragile. Loki isn't immoral. The death of Baldr is the reality gods gave to humans of fragile peace. Do you think fragile peace is immoral?

First, do not assume that your metaphysical views are the same as mine.

Second, a fragile peace cannot be either moral or immoral. It is a (usually) political circumstance and as such conventional morality cannot be applied.

Third, your example does not prove that the gods are morally perfect. Teaching a lesson, regardless of how important, does not automatically make the teacher into a moral figure.

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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 06:36:29 pm »
Gods'. Gods create morals and we just follow.

a) That's pretty circular reasoning. The gods are moral and perfect according to the morals...they made up?

And it still doesn't answer the question. There are many gods. Whose morals?

b) Speak for yourself.
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Re: Gods as riddle
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 05:34:03 am »
a) That's pretty circular reasoning. The gods are moral and perfect according to the morals...they made up?
Yes. Gods create morals and obey them.

Quote
And it still doesn't answer the question. There are many gods. Whose morals?
all gods`. I don't think gods` morals contradict each other.

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