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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox Christianity  (Read 13441 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2015, 11:27:31 am »
Quote from: Apollodorus;179762
Anyway, the common things between any old religion and Christianity are more than one would expect

 
You must not expect much similarity between religions, then.  Especially given that the religion most similar to Christianity, from which most of its actual traditions derive (as opposed to folk traditions like whatever that "red eggs" thing was supposed to be), has not gotten a mention here.
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2015, 09:31:00 pm »
Quote from: Apollodorus;179780
I strongly disagree with your conclusion. No bashing, no cursing and of course i respect Muslims as i respect every man's faith. But i don't respect people who like to destroy everything just to prove their opinion right.

 
*** MOD HAT ON ***
Publicly disputing a staff/host warning is also a violation of our rules.

You now have your first formal strike; if you get to three it will earn you a week or two vacation from posting.

You don't have to respect the destroyers, but you do have to stop broadly condemning entire religions as if all its adherents are destroyers. That specifically means that you need to stop broadly condemning all of Christianity.

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Demophon

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2015, 09:59:04 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;179794
You must not expect much similarity between religions, then.  Especially given that the religion most similar to Christianity, from which most of its actual traditions derive (as opposed to folk traditions like whatever that "red eggs" thing was supposed to be), has not gotten a mention here.

 
Which do you mean, the cult of Osiris/Wesir from ancient Egypt?

Sarah

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2015, 10:02:51 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;180252
Which do you mean, the cult of Osiris/Wesir from ancient Egypt?

 
....pretty sure they mean Judaism
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Demophon

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2015, 10:11:38 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;180254
....pretty sure they mean Judaism

 
Ah, that would make sense.

Darkhawk

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2015, 10:35:08 am »
Quote from: Demophon;180252
Which do you mean, the cult of Osiris/Wesir from ancient Egypt?

 
I'm an actual Egyptian pagan; I know that the similarities there are completely superficial.

The fact that it's apparently not totally obvious that I was talking about Judaism depresses me a lot.
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Sarah

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2015, 02:07:54 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;180271
I'm an actual Egyptian pagan; I know that the similarities there are completely superficial.

The fact that it's apparently not totally obvious that I was talking about Judaism depresses me a lot.

 
I found it pretty alarming, TBH
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2015, 02:28:54 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;180252
Which do you mean, the cult of Osiris/Wesir from ancient Egypt?

 
The Osiris story is not a very suitable comparison to the Christ story: Osiris stays as a judge in the afterlife, while Christ returns to mundane life on Earth (at least for forty days). Likewise, the return of Adonis is a late addition to the Atargatis myth, not known before the second century CE in the treatise De Dea Syria. Persephone returns, but not to a life on Earth, but in another Otherworld: Olympus, and is obliged to stay in Hades a third of every year in a way dissimilar to Christ. In search for Pre-Christian parallels to the Christian resurrection theme, I would instead suggest the Baal cycle and the myth about Attis as considerably closer parallels, although the Christ myth doesn't include an assisting warrior goddess (Anat) or a castration (Attis).

The most important direct influence of ancient Egyptian religion on Christianity is probably the artistic convention of depicting Jesus in the lap of Mary in a way very close to Harpokrates in the lap of Isis.

Indirect influences came via Judaism:
  • The affinity between Psalm 104 (Heb.)/103 (LXX) and Achenaten's Hymn to the Sun
  • The common content in Egyptian collections of proverbs and the Book of Proverbs
  • Judgment in afterlife (although the similar Zoroastrian theme may be an alternative source of this theme in Judaism and its daughter religions)

MadZealot

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2015, 08:51:55 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;180271
The fact that it's apparently not totally obvious that I was talking about Judaism depresses me a lot.

 

Quote from: Jake_;180278
I found it pretty alarming, TBH

 
And puzzling.  

Trying to decide if it's due to plain ol' historical/theological ignorance endemic in the pagan community
Or.  
Maybe there's just some good ol thinly veiled anti-Semitism embedded therein.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Demophon

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2015, 04:14:28 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;180271
I'm an actual Egyptian pagan; I know that the similarities there are completely superficial.

The fact that it's apparently not totally obvious that I was talking about Judaism depresses me a lot.

 
Quote from: Jake_;180278
I found it pretty alarming, TBH

 
Quote from: MadZealot;180294
And puzzling.  

Trying to decide if it's due to plain ol' historical/theological ignorance endemic in the pagan community
Or.  
Maybe there's just some good ol thinly veiled anti-Semitism embedded therein.

 
Knowing that Darkhawk was a Kemetic pagan I made a wrong assumption. Excuse me for living. I guess I'm just an ignorant anti-Semite.

Hysterical liberal overreactions aside, I don't think it's a scandal for Judaism not to be the first religion to come to mind when thinking about traditions from which Christianity derives. Christianity and Judaism are very different in many ways, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Christianity is very "pagan," either. Theological concepts like the Trinity and Original Sin are not biblical and not shared with Jews, and Jesus does not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah from a Jewish perspective. On the other hand, Christianity puts a lot of emphasis on eternal life and overcoming death, and in "high church" Catholic tradition, it is a custom to make the Sign of the Cross on yourself at the end of the Creed when you say "the life everlasting," which always makes me think of the ankh. It could be superficial, or even a complete coincidence, but I don't think it's unreasonable to notice a connection.

Redfaery

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2015, 04:23:27 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;180337
Theological concepts like the Trinity and Original Sin are not biblical and not shared with Jews, and Jesus does not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah from a Jewish perspective.

 
Orthodox Christians don't believe in Original Sin, and not all Christians are trinitarians. Unitarians and Mormons come to mind.
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Castus

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2015, 09:06:18 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;180339
Orthodox Christians don't believe in Original Sin, and not all Christians are trinitarians. Unitarians and Mormons come to mind.


Well... not all Christians are trinitarians is not necessarily true...
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2015, 05:58:29 am »
Quote from: Demophon;180337
Hysterical liberal overreactions aside, I don't think it's a scandal for Judaism not to be the first religion to come to mind when thinking about traditions from which Christianity derives. Christianity and Judaism are very different in many ways, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Christianity is very "pagan," either.

Some aspects of Christianity have more easily traced Jewish roots:
  • The celebration of Pascha, with the Resurrection as the added (and main) cause of celebration
  • The celebration of Pentecost, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as the added (and main) cause of celebration
  • Baptism (with roots in the Jewish use of mikvah, a ritual bath
  • Eucharist (with roots in the Jewish Shabat meal and Passover meal, seder, the eucharistic chalice being the third of the cups blessed during the Passover meal)
  • The entire Hebrew Bible, but with content reordered
  • Greek Jewish scriptures, the Deutero-Canonical or Apocryphal books, used by the major part of Christendom (but not Presbyterians, Baptists, and similar confessions) - although they never were considered canonical among Jews in Judaea, the origin is still Jewish
  • The ten commandments (although two of them - about the Shabat and the use of art - are reinterpreted or intentionally disregarded)
  • The allusion to the Noahide commandments for Gentiles in Acts 15.28-29
  • Regular official prayer: In the Jewish case three times a day, in the case of Christians either two (Anglicans), three (Syriacs) or seven (Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) times a day. Protestants don't, unless they are High Church, since Protestants have a more sentimental view on prayer

Quote from: Demophon;180337
On the other hand, Christianity puts a lot of emphasis on eternal life and overcoming death, and in "high church" Catholic tradition, it is a custom to make the Sign of the Cross on yourself at the end of the Creed when you say "the life everlasting," which always makes me think of the ankh. It could be superficial, or even a complete coincidence, but I don't think it's unreasonable to notice a connection.

A similarity closer to the milieu of origin is probably the ancient way to write the letter Taw in the Hebrew and Syro-Phoenician alphabet, like a +
The design of the letter later changed to the design it has today. That, of course, didn't hinder Coptic Christians in Egypt to gladly continue the use of the ankh, now as a Christian symbol.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 05:59:21 am by RecycledBenedict »

RandallS

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2015, 08:06:01 am »
Quote from: Castus;180345
Well... not all Christians are trinitarians is not necessarily true...

I'm not sure I get what you are saying as there are groups normally consider Christian that are not trinitarians: Unitarians certainly are (and not all Unitarians as Unitarian Universialists).
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Castus

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Re: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2015, 09:22:00 am »
Quote from: RandallS;180364
I'm not sure I get what you are saying as there are groups normally consider Christian that are not trinitarians: Unitarians certainly are (and not all Unitarians as Unitarian Universialists).

 
Well, I would say that trinitarianism is essential to any orthodox sense of Christianity; and that non-trinitarianism is so heterodox as to render denominations that hold to it as outside the Christian fold.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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