Defunct Religions

[Jenett]

If teachers are taking classes and learning about secular ethics, and moral development in psychology, they are refusing to use that knowledge willfully. They either don't know what to do, or they are refusing to do it to create a problem that requires religion to be brought back into the schools.  I am ready to witchhunt such people and force them out of the public schools.  They are not serving God or our children or our community with their flavor of zeal.

Are you aware of what the requirements are for teachers in Georgia? (I'm familiar with other states). They usually have a lot of specific classes to take, both in their field of subject expertise, and in general, and they don't have a ton of time for electives in most degree programs. (This is pretty widespread across the US, from my conversations with professors teaching prospective teachers, that it's one of the most structured programs already with a lot of requirements.)

Once they are teaching, there are also a huge number of things teachers must cover and do - many of them very detailed requirements from the state department of education or their school districts (just keeping up with the requirements and how they change year to year can take a week of work time.)

Many teachers already effectively work 10-14 hour days (plus weekend time) and their summers often involve mandatory training on a wide area of things.

While I agree that it's good for all adults to have a solid grounding in ethics (from a general perspective, not solely a religious one), you are making unreasonable demands here. Why does it have to be teachers who teach this? Why not parents? Why not community organizations (not just religious ones, but organizations like scouting, boys and girls club, or other after-school or summer programs). Why not some other options?

Usually what schools can do is focused on school citizenship issues (keeping the place running smoothly, behaviour standards for that school, etc), digital safety and literacy, and other things that are more directly a part of the school day.

[RitaCeleste]

If teachers are taking classes and learning about secular ethics, and moral development in psychology, they are refusing to use that knowledge willfully. They either don't know what to do, or they are refusing to do it to create a problem that requires religion to be brought back into the schools.  I am ready to witchhunt such people and force them out of the public schools.  They are not serving God or our children or our community with their flavor of zeal.

The people who fill the private prison beds are the children of our public education system who had to rely on public defenders.  Some people just generate more jobs and revenue if they are locked up.  But this would be somewhat harder to pull off if morals and ethics were not almost completely removed from our classrooms when the Government asked that religion not be shoved down the throats of the children starting in kindergarten.

Peoples lives are being destroyed for what?  War on Drugs, War on the poor is what it is.  Everyone has been aware of this ethical void created inside the people who can not afford a higher degree of indoctrination through our system of higher education.

Fewer children feel free to dress goth.  People are all trying to conform most rigorously.  And the few children who just can't manage to conform enough or are rejected in spite of their efforts are looking for something of their own.  They are drawn to Wicca or anything really.  But this will not fill the void left by our public education system and our over-worked parents.

So religions are not filling this void in our children and jails are full and it's a profitable prison business.  But make no mistake, there is a huge void deliberately created in people too poor or unwilling to submit to our higher education system.

And so I must point out that people are seeking and not finding what they need from religions.  No one has addressed those needs yet.  Many say, "What void, I see no void!" and so it continues.

I have said what I see.  I have explained it to the best of my ability.  I can do no more than that today.  Pretending not to see the elephant in the room never really banishes it.

[MamaThistle]

The people who fill the private prison beds are the children of our public education system who had to rely on public defenders.  Some people just generate more jobs and revenue if they are locked up.  But this would be somewhat harder to pull off if morals and ethics were not almost completely removed from our classrooms when the Government asked that religion not be shoved down the throats of the children starting in kindergarten.

Peoples lives are being destroyed for what?  War on Drugs, War on the poor is what it is.  Everyone has been aware of this ethical void created inside the people who can not afford a higher degree of indoctrination through our system of higher education.

Fewer children feel free to dress goth.  People are all trying to conform most rigorously.  And the few children who just can't manage to conform enough or are rejected in spite of their efforts are looking for something of their own.  They are drawn to Wicca or anything really.  But this will not fill the void left by our public education system and our over-worked parents.

So religions are not filling this void in our children and jails are full and it's a profitable prison business.  But make no mistake, there is a huge void deliberately created in people too poor or unwilling to submit to our higher education system.

And so I must point out that people are seeking and not finding what they need from religions.  No one has addressed those needs yet.  Many say, "What void, I see no void!" and so it continues.

I have said what I see.  I have explained it to the best of my ability.  I can do no more than that today.  Pretending not to see the elephant in the room never really banishes it.

I’m not sure what the War on Drugs has to do with paganism. I don’t think it’s fair to conflate the two, as African Americans are far more oppressed in the given situation than pagans will ever be. Most African Americans are Christian.. so I’m not getting the connection.

[RitaCeleste]

I’m not sure what the War on Drugs has to do with paganism. I don’t think it’s fair to conflate the two, as African Americans are far more oppressed in the given situation than pagans will ever be. Most African Americans are Christian. so I’m not getting the connection.

Jenett is right about my request of teachers being unreasonable given what they have to do currently to keep their jobs.  They are already backed into such a corner that their hands are pretty well tied up.  It is my belief that this is intentional.

Policies create conditions that are not unforeseen by policymakers.  It is my belief that many people made policies in different areas like education, laws, etc with the knowledge that it would make some people money and it would destroy the lives of many poor people. 

So I believe many people without the means to buy lawyers and access to higher education are being warehoused for profit in jails when they are not generating money in the criminal economy created by and maintained by the War on Drugs and much of that ill-earned cash is being laundered by the bankers who do so with impunity and profit from doing so.  Profiting from crime without actually getting one's hands too dirty is the dirtiest of all.

If you don't step back and take in the whole picture, you do justice to no one.  No one is doing more time than Black America.  Christianity, Paganism, etc, religion is failing to teach the critical thinking skills needed for people to avoid becoming cannon fodder for the penal system.  People seem unable or unwilling to see and define a huge problem and track down and change the policies creating and supporting it.

I do not have the power to change the world.  But I will not tell myself fairytales about the world so I sleep better at night.  I am working back and following the money and looking at the policies and their results.  I can not give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the reasons the policies were enacted in the first place.  I feel they are working as intended and I disagree with those intentions.

My Grandmother could ignore a pink polka dotted elephant plopped right down in the middle of her living room. I do not possess this skill.  I will say no more on this subject.  It serves no purpose.  It will do no good.  It will not matter.  I have vented on the topic as much as is healthy.  It is time for me to do something more positive and with the potential to bear actual fruit.  Or to distract myself with a good book at the very least.

Thank you for participating in the discussion, it was helpful for me to vent a little.

[MamaThistle]

Jenett is right about my request of teachers being unreasonable given what they have to do currently to keep their jobs.  They are already backed into such a corner that their hands are pretty well tied up.  It is my belief that this is intentional.

Policies create conditions that are not unforeseen by policymakers.  It is my belief that many people made policies in different areas like education, laws, etc with the knowledge that it would make some people money and it would destroy the lives of many poor people. 

So I believe many people without the means to buy lawyers and access to higher education are being warehoused for profit in jails when they are not generating money in the criminal economy created by and maintained by the War on Drugs and much of that ill-earned cash is being laundered by the bankers who do so with impunity and profit from doing so.  Profiting from crime without actually getting one's hands too dirty is the dirtiest of all.

If you don't step back and take in the whole picture, you do justice to no one.  No one is doing more time than Black America.  Christianity, Paganism, etc, religion is failing to teach the critical thinking skills needed for people to avoid becoming cannon fodder for the penal system.  People seem unable or unwilling to see and define a huge problem and track down and change the policies creating and supporting it.

I do not have the power to change the world.  But I will not tell myself fairytales about the world so I sleep better at night.  I am working back and following the money and looking at the policies and their results.  I can not give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the reasons the policies were enacted in the first place.  I feel they are working as intended and I disagree with those intentions.

My Grandmother could ignore a pink polka dotted elephant plopped right down in the middle of her living room. I do not possess this skill.  I will say no more on this subject.  It serves no purpose.  It will do no good.  It will not matter.  I have vented on the topic as much as is healthy.  It is time for me to do something more positive and with the potential to bear actual fruit.  Or to distract myself with a good book at the very least.

Thank you for participating in the discussion, it was helpful for me to vent a little.

Okay, I get where you’re coming from now. I understand your frustration, hang in there.

[Yei]

Okay, the problem I have with Christianity is that it is no longer easy for people to learn ethics they can apply to their modern lives from these stories.  The problem I have with Paganism is that it is trying to be out of date as well.  Neither are addressing the ethical issues confronting people who want to make the best choices with all the new science and information and resources available to them today.

After thinking about this post I have to ask, exactly what do you mean? How are Christian ethics in some way not applicable to modern life, and how are polytheistic religions and their ethics also supposedly out of date? I would like specifics.

[RitaCeleste]

After thinking about this post I have to ask, exactly what do you mean? How are Christian ethics in some way not applicable to modern life, and how are polytheistic religions and their ethics also supposedly out of date? I would like specifics.

Well, is fidelity as important when you have DNA tests to sort the kids out and name them properly? Is it some terrible thing that should be punished.  Why is abortion even an issue when every Christian has agreed in the past that their all-knowing God does not sit a soul in an unborn child that is going to miscarry or die in childbirth anyway?

 Most people do not raise and kill their food, they go to the grocery store, they need a farmers almanac for what?  In fact, how do you get back to nature while locating in a clusterfuck of a city to meet like-minded people so you can do make the earth green rituals together? 

Do you really want me to go on?  No really, I can do this all day.  I can keep pointing out we are not weaver and candlestick makers and our toilets flush, we live in cities and our options and circumstances are vastly different from those of our ancestors or those we read about in fairytales.  We may feel the same feelings but our world is a very different place. 

The average person wants to know if stealing files is the same armed robbery, whether to divorce their wife if the best friend Bob is the Daddy.  How would look if you just made Bob pay child support and you took her back?  Do you have hate her?  If you do hate should she go live with Bob and take your kid with her too? 

If you can afford to picky about groceries, what should you choose to eat?  How can you save money?  When should you not skimp?  How do you live ethically and responsibly?  Where do your rights end and the next person's begin?  I could go on and on and on.  You just keep being deliberately obtuse.

Religion is mostly to help common people by telling them explicitly what they should do in any given situation.  They want to be lead.  Pagans want to be free to find their own way.  This is great, its not going to work for the masses though.  They don't want to be free or to think.  They just want the answer key to the test, they do not want to study.

Need more?  Really?

If so, I cannot help you.  You either get it or don't.  You don't ask for details to try and find something to pick apart because I insulted the greatest religion thing ever.  Be honest about why you claimed to not understand where I was coming from.

[Morag]

You just keep being deliberately obtuse.

and

Religion is mostly to help common people by telling them explicitly what they should do in any given situation.  They want to be lead.  Pagans want to be free to find their own way.  This is great, its not going to work for the masses though.  They don't want to be free or to think.  They just want the answer key to the test, they do not want to study.

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RitaCeleste, Our rules explicitly state "DO NOT make personal attacks (name calling, hostile remarks, accusations, etc.) anywhere in our community (including posts, personal messages, reputation comments, etc.)," and "DO NOT make blanket condemnations of religions, cultures, peoples, or classes/categories of people." You agreed to follow these rules when you signed up for TC. This is your first warning and strike. As well, it would do well for you to remember that The Cauldron is primarily a discussion and debate board, which means if you make a claim, you will be asked for proof -- or clarification, which was the case here. If you find you cannot reply to someone requesting clarification without resorting to a personal attack or blanket condemnation and thus breaking the forum rules, then do not reply. Morag TC Forum Staff

[RitaCeleste]

and

*** MOD HAT ON ***

RitaCeleste, Our rules explicitly state "DO NOT make personal attacks (name calling, hostile remarks, accusations, etc.) anywhere in our community (including posts, personal messages, reputation comments, etc.)," and "DO NOT make blanket condemnations of religions, cultures, peoples, or classes/categories of people." You agreed to follow these rules when you signed up for TC. This is your first warning and strike. As well, it would do well for you to remember that The Cauldron is primarily a discussion and debate board, which means if you make a claim, you will be asked for proof -- or clarification, which was the case here. If you find you cannot reply to someone requesting clarification without resorting to a personal attack or blanket condemnation and thus breaking the forum rules, then do not reply. Morag TC Forum Staff

Fine.  I am autistic.  I need this like I need this place like I need a hole in the head.  I am just fine without this site.  He asked for details in order to nit pic. But I am the bad guy.  Ban me and delete my account.  I just forgot this site existed anyway.

[Yei]

Well, is fidelity as important when you have DNA tests to sort the kids out and name them properly? Is it some terrible thing that should be punished.  Why is abortion even an issue when every Christian has agreed in the past that their all-knowing God does not sit a soul in an unborn child that is going to miscarry or die in childbirth anyway?

First, why are DNA tests and fidelity linked here? Sure, adultery may result in children. But not necessarily, and it is entirely possible for someone to have adulterous relationships and yet never have children. And what does this have to do with religious teachings? Are you saying that fidelity is unimportant as loyalty can be enforced through the threat of a paternity test? This of course assumes that the only reason to be faithful is to maintain paternity, ignoring all the other reasons. No, I think religion still has an important message on this one.

Now for abortion. I understand that Christian opinions on the matter are divided, with some viewing it as a bad thing to be avoided at all costs, with others taking a more pragmatic 'necessary evil' approach. I don't think Christians have ever all agreed on anything to be honest. Regardless, I don't see why their differing opinions somehow means that Christianity is somehow obsolete. If anything, this new focus could be the result of modernity, a reaction to the medicalisation of abortion and the increasing power of media and record keeping. And of course, this is only Christianity. Other religions have their own opinions, no less relevant. For example, I know that for ancient Mexicans the soul was not yet fully bound to the body. So if a mother ran into trouble during childbirth, the preference was to save her at the expense of the child. We also know that they had extensive knowledge of chemical abortificants, although details are unknown for obvious reasons, and that pregnant women were usually treated by female doctors. Personally, I think that this view fits well into the modern world and even helps to resolve some important questions around a difficult, and often contentious, subject.

Most people do not raise and kill their food, they go to the grocery store, they need a farmers almanac for what?  In fact, how do you get back to nature while locating in a clusterfuck of a city to meet like-minded people so you can do make the earth green rituals together? 

Do most people have farmers almanacs? I haven't done any research, so I don't really know. But I would imagine that most people don't, and those that do are either farmers themselves, or originally came from farming families. In the former case an almanac may come in handy, and in the second, an almanac may be preserved for sentimental purposes, or because it contains records and details useful for someone creating a local/regional history.

As to the second part, many cities maintain green spaces (either within them or nearby) precisely for this reason. I believe that national parks (in the US at least) were originally created so people could 'get back to nature.' Furthermore, our modern awareness of environmental issues makes our relationship to and maintenance of the environment the issue of the century. To return to the issue of religion, I think that polytheistic nature religions are uniquely suited to help here. Remember the call to get back to nature is a call to action. It is asking people to do things, such as preserve the environment, halt over-development, and maintain continuity of habitat. Indeed, part of the renewed popularity of these religions may be due to their support of a modern environmental consciousness.

And the other perspective is that many religions value cities. I know that mine does, and the city is an important conceptual object. I expect that a Roman Reconstructionist may feel the same way, as would a Messopotamian reconstructionist.

Do you really want me to go on?  No really, I can do this all day.  I can keep pointing out we are not weaver and candlestick makers and our toilets flush, we live in cities and our options and circumstances are vastly different from those of our ancestors or those we read about in fairytales.  We may feel the same feelings but our world is a very different place. 

You seem to think that cities and modern jobs popped out of the aether three weeks ago. It is true that modernity has brought with it a whole host of changes. But remember that the basis remains fairly constant. I mean, we still have candelstick makers and weavers. We still have street sweepers, and market sellers, and publicans. Go the other way, the Romans had product placement and celebrity endorsements. Go to Mexico and see the markets. The fashions have changed, but selling is still the same. Change does not render the past irrelevant, it simply proves why it was important in the first place.

And what does this have to do with religions? Do we find a lack of candlestick makers and just decide that 'well sorry Shintoism, you're fired!' Why does the changing nature of a profession somehow mean that theology and philosophical teachings should be discarded?

The average person wants to know if stealing files is the same armed robbery, whether to divorce their wife if the best friend Bob is the Daddy.  How would look if you just made Bob pay child support and you took her back?  Do you have hate her?  If you do hate should she go live with Bob and take your kid with her too? 

I'm sure they do. But again, relevancy. What does this have to do with your argument that religions are useless? I think that most religions would have opinions on these matters.

If you can afford to picky about groceries, what should you choose to eat?  How can you save money?  When should you not skimp?  How do you live ethically and responsibly?  Where do your rights end and the next person's begin?  I could go on and on and on.  You just keep being deliberately obtuse.

I repeat my above statement. Prove relevancy please. And what do you mean I 'keep being deliberately obtuse'? That was my first post on the thread!

Religion is mostly to help common people by telling them explicitly what they should do in any given situation.  They want to be lead.  Pagans want to be free to find their own way.  This is great, its not going to work for the masses though.  They don't want to be free or to think.  They just want the answer key to the test, they do not want to study.

First, asking for advice and/or guidance is not a bad thing. Second, the sheer diversity of religious thought (not to mention all their internal conflicts) should indicate that people are argumentative about religion, and frequently disagree about it. Third, since when are the various pagan religions not religions?

If so, I cannot help you.  You either get it or don't.  You don't ask for details to try and find something to pick apart because I insulted the greatest religion thing ever.  Be honest about why you claimed to not understand where I was coming from.

Criticism and analysis are a natural and normal part of philosophical debate, and indeed, discussion in general. And, if I remember correctly, The Caludron is a forum specifically for these kinds of religious debates. So yes, I expect you to be able to defend your argument, and to use relevant examples/explanations to articulate what your meaning/intent is. If you make a big claim, you have to back it up.

[Sefiru]

Yei already said most of what I wanted to say, so I'll just expand on a few points ...

many cities maintain green spaces (either within them or nearby) precisely for this reason.

Even outside of green spaces, most cities are full of non-human life. Sure, pigeons, rats and weeds might not be glamorous, but they're still nature. And weather, of course, is everywhere, city and country alike.

asking for advice and/or guidance is not a bad thing. Second, the sheer diversity of religious thought (not to mention all their internal conflicts) should indicate that people are argumentative about religion, and frequently disagree about it.

There are also many religions that go beyond direct advice of the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" variety, and teach methods for making one's own decisions, or have long histories of philosophical debate.

[SunflowerP]

Fine.  I am autistic.  I need this like I need this place like I need a hole in the head.  I am just fine without this site.  He asked for details in order to nit pic. But I am the bad guy.  Ban me and delete my account.  I just forgot this site existed anyway.

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We don't delete accounts. From our rules: 'We do not delete accounts, so please do not ask to have your account deleted. Accounts are never deleted as doing so would completely disrupt every topic the account holder ever participated in. If you wish to leave the board, just go to your profile and turn off all your board and topic subscriptions and set your account to block email from users and announcements.' Our rules also say, 'DO NOT argue with, comment on, complain about, criticize, or otherwise discuss staff decisions on rules issues in public in Cauldron community areas. If you think a decision that directly affects you is incorrect, you may make an appeal in private in accordance with our Moderation Appeal Guidelines.' Which is exactly what you just did. And there's doubling-down on your attack on Yei, so another violation of the no-personal-attacks rule. So, while we don't delete accounts, we will gladly comply with your demand to be banned. Sunflower TC Message Board Coordinator

[ehbowen]

Why is abortion even an issue when every Christian has agreed in the past that their all-knowing God does not sit a soul in an unborn child that is going to miscarry or die in childbirth anyway?

Not wanting to open a can of worms now that Rita has left the thread, but this Christian does not so agree.

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[SunflowerP]

Not wanting to open a can of worms now that Rita has left the thread, but this Christian does not so agree.

I'd guess that quite a few don't, in a wide range of ways that don't agree with each other, either. RitaCeleste's picture of Christianity and Christian theology seems to have been a very narrowly limited one.

Sunflower

[EclecticWheel]

Not wanting to open a can of worms now that Rita has left the thread, but this Christian does not so agree.

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I am not one to take offence at criticisms of religion or even my own denomination.  However, I do always feel compelled to point out that religions and Christians are a diverse lot in many respects, and most criticisms won't apply to all.