Defunct Religions

[RitaCeleste]

Okay, the problem I have with Christianity is that it is no longer easy for people to learn ethics they can apply to their modern lives from these stories.  The problem I have with Paganism is that it is trying to be out of date as well.  Neither are addressing the ethical issues confronting people who want to make the best choices with all the new science and information and resources available to them today.

I have spoken in tounges.  I have done energy healings.  My pendulum works about as well as can be expected considering my guides.  I have gotten good readings with tarot cards and the Lenormand cards.  I am perfectly happy to muddle through life without referencing any religious texts.

My children learned their ethics from Japnese anime and Harry Potter.  And perhaps from me. I don't think with the resources available to me I could have done a better job.

So really all the religions make feel as if I have been given a book on MS-DOS copyright 1981 and am told to take that as my only source and build a hot new phone app that works on Apple and Samsung.

Does anyone ever feel this way?  Is it just me?

[Sefiru]

Neither are addressing the ethical issues confronting people who want to make the best choices with all the new science and information and resources available to them today.

Keep in mind that a lot of Pagan paths don't have much to say about ethics at all; they're more about honoring the Gods, experiencing other planes of reality and things like that. Here is a good article about this.

I am perfectly happy to muddle through life without referencing any religious texts.

But ... most Pagan paths aren't based on texts anyway? Books about paganism are generally descriptive, not prescriptive. Just like people don't learn to ride bikes from a book, and a book about cycling wouldn't truly explain how to do it.

My children learned their ethics from Japnese anime

There are worse places to learn ethics from. Considering how much anime has themes from Buddhist and Shinto mythology; especially the good stuff like Miyazaki's movies. Here is a thread on Pagan-themed movies.

So really all the religions make feel as if I have been given a book on MS-DOS copyright 1981 and am told to take that as my only source and build a hot new phone app that works on Apple and Samsung.

Honestly, I think you're approaching it with the wrong mindset. I look at Pagan resources the same way I do craft books: I'll look for project ideas and techniques that interest me, I'll consult them for practical/safety information ("Invoke this deity only in a well-ventillated area"), but I wouldn't limit myself to exactly reproducing a project as it's shown - let alone every project in the book. let alone limit myself to just one book.

[RitaCeleste]

Honestly, I think you're approaching it with the wrong mindset. I look at Pagan resources the same way I do craft books: I'll look for project ideas and techniques that interest me, I'll consult them for practical/safety information ("Invoke this deity only in a well-ventillated area"), but I wouldn't limit myself to exactly reproducing a project as it's shown - let alone every project in the book. let alone limit myself to just one book.

That was the spirit I was going for when I got my daughter books on Wicca.  I figured she'd reference them occasionally.  Its really rare that I grab a Bible to look something up though.

You have to dig up Paganism to even find the Goddess again.  My God and Goddess are alive and well.  But I do feel I neglect the Goddess more often than not.  However, when I want a rule bent, not broken just bent, she's my number one person to call on.

To me, less is more when it comes to religion itself.  I pray, I talk to my guides, I hope, dream, and wish.  I am kinda a loner so the social aspect is not a plus, its panic attack inducing.

There are a lot of things I like about both Christianity and Paganism.  I plan on reading fairytales a lot though.  Even the fiction I read has good guys and bad guys and the best choice under the circumstances playing out.  And my children who watched Japanese Anime never had a teen rebellion.  But the pressure is on me to be wiser for sure.

But you have to go to college and take ethics classes to really get any useful instruction on ethics.  Lots of Christians don't go to college.....  I still think there is quite a void being left when a religion can't adapt and grow like a living thing.  Who decided to finish the Bible and never write another word in there?

I hope the Pagan religion will allow itself to continue to grow into the future.

[Jenett]

You have to dig up Paganism to even find the Goddess again.  My God and Goddess are alive and well.  But I do feel I neglect the Goddess more often than not.  However, when I want a rule bent, not broken just bent, she's my number one person to call on.

Well, for one thing, Paganism is not *a* religion - it's either a social movement or a collection of religions, depending on how you define some other things. It makes a lot of sense that there's no cohesive unified sense of ethics under that.

In terms of specific religions which are under hte Pagan umbrella, plenty of them have ethics - but in mystery and initiatory traditions, they are usually things passed along in the course of oral teaching, not the material that would be found in books (even if there are books on the tradition, which there often aren't.)

I'm on about the fifth lecture with my current students that includes ethics. (No, actually, sixth, early in January). I start with a general overview of common concepts, and then as we cover specific topics (magic, healing, divination, ritual design, incorporating magical/ritual/religious practices into daily life, etc.) we talk about specific things to consider. As questions come up in their lives or in the course of talking during classes, we talk about ethics.

(This is a fairly Jewish Talmudic approach to figuring out ethics: there are some consistent practices, but a lot of discussion.)

I also come out of a part of Catholicism that had extensive discussion on ethics. I was technically a convert to Catholicism (at the age of 13, so no full adult), got some more in CCD classes, even more in the two year confirmation class (including rather a long discussion on just war theory, because the first Gulf War started the night we had class....), and then quite a lot interwoven with college community events.

You do have to not run the other way when it comes up, but the parish I was a part of at home had plenty of adult options (and my mother, who remains Catholic and who is a lay sister, actually) also gets quite a bit of it. It's not always out on the surface as part of daily or weekly ritual (though, certainly, there are plenty of opportunities in homilies or other choices in services), but there's plenty out there if people look.

[RitaCeleste]

Well, for one thing, Paganism is not *a* religion - it's either a social movement or a collection of religions, depending on how you define some other things. It makes a lot of sense that there's no cohesive unified sense of ethics under that.

Okay, in the Christian religion they teach that God is all-knowing.  When women were dying in childbirth, when they were having miscarriages, no one believed the soul entered a fetus at conception.  What kind of God would have souls just sit around to be miscarried?  But now people have been convinced that their God does such things for the sake of politics and political agendas.

Voids tend to get filled with something by someone.  Its even easier to fill a void than to convince people they really don't know what they always thought they knew.  But even that happens. 

There is a void when it comes to dealing with modern life and modern problems.  With so many options and resources, one might begin to think we can do better than we have in the past.  One might think it is okay to try new things and new ways.

The family bible is sitting on my bookcase.  I never consulted it to see what food to eat, I always went for a cookbook.  DNA testing.  Yes, we can sort out the kids, yay! The morning after pill.  The list goes on and on.  What would Jesus say?  No one knows, can't ask him.  Anybody else?  Anybody?

[EclecticWheel]

Okay, in the Christian religion they teach that God is all-knowing.  When women were dying in childbirth, when they were having miscarriages, no one believed the soul entered a fetus at conception.  What kind of God would have souls just sit around to be miscarried?  But now people have been convinced that their God does such things for the sake of politics and political agendas.

Voids tend to get filled with something by someone.  Its even easier to fill a void than to convince people they really don't know what they always thought they knew.  But even that happens. 

There is a void when it comes to dealing with modern life and modern problems.  With so many options and resources, one might begin to think we can do better than we have in the past.  One might think it is okay to try new things and new ways.

The family bible is sitting on my bookcase.  I never consulted it to see what food to eat, I always went for a cookbook.  DNA testing.  Yes, we can sort out the kids, yay! The morning after pill.  The list goes on and on.  What would Jesus say?  No one knows, can't ask him.  Anybody else?  Anybody?

The Christians I know -- generally from Anglican and other liturgical traditions-- do not only consult the bible for ethical insight, and when they do consult the bible, they read it informed by diverse sources of knowledge including that provided by secular resources.

One of my priests has described tradition as ongoing and evolving through conversations had across time and space.

It is within the context of that ongoing conversation that we read the bible according to him.  We don't take it all at face value, either.

An ongoing tradition is adaptable and able to incorporate new knowledge.  So I've not really seen what you're describing arise as a problem among the Christians I know.

[RitaCeleste]

The Christians I know -- generally from Anglican and other liturgical traditions-- do not only consult the bible for ethical insight, and when they do consult the bible, they read it informed by diverse sources of knowledge including that provided by secular resources.

One of my priests has described tradition as ongoing and evolving through conversations had across time and space.

It is within the context of that ongoing conversation that we read the bible according to him.  We don't take it all at face value, either.

An ongoing tradition is adaptable and able to incorporate new knowledge.  So I've not really seen what you're describing arise as a problem among the Christians I know.

You are from Texas.  I assure you, you see what I see in Georgia.  You just are not bothered by it.

[MamaThistle]

That was the spirit I was going for when I got my daughter books on Wicca.  I figured she'd reference them occasionally.  Its really rare that I grab a Bible to look something up though.

You have to dig up Paganism to even find the Goddess again.  My God and Goddess are alive and well.  But I do feel I neglect the Goddess more often than not.  However, when I want a rule bent, not broken just bent, she's my number one person to call on.

To me, less is more when it comes to religion itself.  I pray, I talk to my guides, I hope, dream, and wish.  I am kinda a loner so the social aspect is not a plus, its panic attack inducing.

There are a lot of things I like about both Christianity and Paganism.  I plan on reading fairytales a lot though.  Even the fiction I read has good guys and bad guys and the best choice under the circumstances playing out.  And my children who watched Japanese Anime never had a teen rebellion.  But the pressure is on me to be wiser for sure.

But you have to go to college and take ethics classes to really get any useful instruction on ethics.  Lots of Christians don't go to college.....  I still think there is quite a void being left when a religion can't adapt and grow like a living thing.  Who decided to finish the Bible and never write another word in there?

I hope the Pagan religion will allow itself to continue to grow into the future.

Well first, that’s not how the Bible, as we know of it today, was formed. It’s a collection of sacred texts chosen later after they were written. There are many canons that did not make it into the Bible that many still accept as sacred texts (including pagans). It wasn’t like someone sat down and decided to write the Bible start to finish. That’s why many biblical stories do not flow together and contradict eachother. A glib comparison is if someone were to put together a random collection of some mythology.

I think you are right that paganism is more “goddess friendly”; however, there are some theories that claim God is genderless and sometimes depicted as a woman or a mother. When Women Were Priests is an interesting take on this with good historical information.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘not many Christians go to college’? I think a lot of Christians attend college.

[EclecticWheel]

You are from Texas.  I assure you, you see what I see in Georgia.  You just are not bothered by it.

That is quite presumptuous on your part.  I specified liturgical traditions and Christians I personally know because what you said does not apply to them: like other religions, Christianity is diverse.  That was my point.

I am well aware of extremist Christians in Texas and elsewhere and do not approve, so I can't say I appreciate you implying that doesn't bother me.  That is an insult of my moral compass in my book.

[RitaCeleste]

Well first, that’s not how the Bible, as we know of it today, was formed. It’s a collection of sacred texts chosen later after they were written. There are many canons that did not make it into the Bible that many still accept as sacred texts (including pagans). It wasn’t like someone sat down and decided to write the Bible start to finish. That’s why many biblical stories do not flow together and contradict eachother. A glib comparison is if someone were to put together a random collection of some mythology.

I think you are right that paganism is more “goddess friendly”; however, there are some theories that claim God is genderless and sometimes depicted as a woman or a mother. When Women Were Priests is an interesting take on this with good historical information.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘not many Christians go to college’? I think a lot of Christians attend college.

I am from rural Southeast Georgia. "Lots of Christians don't go to college....." Is accurate in this geographic location as lots of people here do not go to college and lots of people here are Christians.  The high school drop out rate is pretty high as well.  There is not a religious reason behind it or anything.  It is typical to go to church on Sunday here, but not as typical to be in class on Monday.

Rural communities have not had much in the way of economic recovery.  Poverty is high.  We have a two-year college and a nearby 4-year college where you can finish up classes not offered in town. We have a tech school right next door to the college.  My daughter attends high school on the tech school campus.  Our community is trying really hard to improve education and create a more educated workforce to attract jobs and grow the community.

However, the fact remains, large numbers of people do not get to take a class on ethics at all.  While I might love documentaries and learning and reading, it is rather uncommon where I live.  Lots of people are simple and they want you to keep it simple.  In my line of work, I serve the poorer and less educated in the community.  I am not talking about middle class people who can easily find any answers they seek, or will sit and watch a documentary, or take classes just because they have an interest.

[RitaCeleste]

That is quite presumptuous on your part.  I specified liturgical traditions and Christians I personally know because what you said does not apply to them: like other religions, Christianity is diverse.  That was my point.

I am well aware of extremist Christians in Texas and elsewhere and do not approve, so I can't say I appreciate you implying that doesn't bother me.  That is an insult of my moral compass in my book.

I apologize.  I work with people living in poverty in a rural area.  They are certainly not the type of people you hang out with and discuss books with I am very sure.  But they are the people I am concerned for.  They are people I see struggling and sometimes being taken advantage of.

Again, I am sorry I was rude.  My family is educated and looks down on what I do.  They would have preferred a doctor or a nurse or even a teacher.  I suppose I let that chip on my shoulder get the better of me at your expense.  It was very wrong of me and I am really sorry I was rude to you.

[EclecticWheel]

I apologize.  I work with people living in poverty in a rural area.  They are certainly not the type of people you hang out with and discuss books with I am very sure.  But they are the people I am concerned for.  They are people I see struggling and sometimes being taken advantage of.

Again, I am sorry I was rude.  My family is educated and looks down on what I do.  They would have preferred a doctor or a nurse or even a teacher.  I suppose I let that chip on my shoulder get the better of me at your expense.  It was very wrong of me and I am really sorry I was rude to you.

No worries, and I apologize for being somewhat sensitive.

I do know some Christians of similar backgrounds to what you describe in my family, although some of them are open minded more so than one might first guess. 

I know some narrow ones too.  And I am at least aware of extremists.  You are right to be concerned.

[MamaThistle]

I am from rural Southeast Georgia. "Lots of Christians don't go to college....." Is accurate in this geographic location as lots of people here do not go to college and lots of people here are Christians.  The high school drop out rate is pretty high as well.  There is not a religious reason behind it or anything.  It is typical to go to church on Sunday here, but not as typical to be in class on Monday.

Rural communities have not had much in the way of economic recovery.  Poverty is high.  We have a two-year college and a nearby 4-year college where you can finish up classes not offered in town. We have a tech school right next door to the college.  My daughter attends high school on the tech school campus.  Our community is trying really hard to improve education and create a more educated workforce to attract jobs and grow the community.

However, the fact remains, large numbers of people do not get to take a class on ethics at all.  While I might love documentaries and learning and reading, it is rather uncommon where I live.  Lots of people are simple and they want you to keep it simple.  In my line of work, I serve the poorer and less educated in the community.  I am not talking about middle class people who can easily find any answers they seek, or will sit and watch a documentary, or take classes just because they have an interest.

Right, so what you stated is a characteristic of your geographical location, not of Christianity as a whole. I guess I’m a little confused. Are you concerned about Georgians having access to information? If that is the case I would reach out to libraries in your area.

I also would hope that a college course in ethics would not actually teach “ethics”, but rather teach theory and encourage the students to challenge and invoke critical thought.

[RitaCeleste]

Right, so what you stated is a characteristic of your geographical location, not of Christianity as a whole. I guess I’m a little confused. Are you concerned about Georgians having access to information? If that is the case I would reach out to libraries in your area.

I also would hope that a college course in ethics would not actually teach “ethics”, but rather teach theory and encourage the students to challenge and invoke critical thought.

I think the problem could only be corrected if all Georgia teachers from pre-k on up were required to take and pass a class in secular ethics.  Our teachers want to stop bullying and to encourage moral and ethical thinking.  However, they do not know how to do this legally without bringing God into it.  So our children experience a "void" where no one is really guiding them towards making better choices.

Since so many people do not continue their education beyond High School, this needs to happen in even the lowest grades to be effective for our communities.

[RitaCeleste]

Right, so what you stated is a characteristic of your geographical location, not of Christianity as a whole. I guess I’m a little confused. Are you concerned about Georgians having access to information? If that is the case I would reach out to libraries in your area.

I also would hope that a college course in ethics would not actually teach “ethics”, but rather teach theory and encourage the students to challenge and invoke critical thought.

If teachers are taking classes and learning about secular ethics, and moral development in psychology, they are refusing to use that knowledge willfully. They either don't know what to do, or they are refusing to do it to create a problem that requires religion to be brought back into the schools.  I am ready to witchhunt such people and force them out of the public schools.  They are not serving God or our children or our community with their flavor of zeal.