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Author Topic: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"  (Read 1027 times)

Altair

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"Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« on: February 11, 2024, 11:11:28 am »
from the Southern Poverty Law Center:

U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson appeared Wednesday with pastor Jonathan Cahn – whose sermon highlighted three ancient deities which Cahn equated to demonic spirits that have now “come to America” – at the anti-LGBTQ+ hate group Family Research Council’s National Gathering for Prayer and Repentance.

'Cahn claimed three ancient deities named Ba’al, Ishtar and Moloch compose “a dark trinity” of spirits currently operating in the U.S. to drive God from public life, seduce the culture through “sexual revolution” and drive parents to “sacrifice their children.”

'Cahn claimed the activities of Ishtar in particular are represented by abortion, gender-affirming care and LGBTQ+ pride month. “She was connected with” the rainbow, Cahn said, and she was “the goddess of parades, parades that celebrated the alteration of gender.” He also said she would “possess the culture” in “one month of all months: the month of June.” '


To which I can only say: Welcome, Ishtar!
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2024, 03:24:39 pm »
'Cahn claimed three ancient deities named Ba’al, Ishtar and Moloch compose “a dark trinity” of spirits currently operating in the U.S. to drive God from public life, seduce the culture through “sexual revolution” and drive parents to “sacrifice their children.”

'Cahn claimed the activities of Ishtar in particular are represented by abortion, gender-affirming care and LGBTQ+ pride month. “She was connected with” the rainbow, Cahn said, and she was “the goddess of parades, parades that celebrated the alteration of gender.” He also said she would “possess the culture” in “one month of all months: the month of June.” '

Normally the right wing likes to accuse Jewish people of sacrificing babies, but I guess the political atmosphere isn't right for that at the moment?

Anyone familiar with history knows that the month of June did not exist during the height of Ishtar's worship. However, Inanna (the goddess who was identified with and absorbed into Ishtar) was indeed known to have transgender priests and priestesses. The poet/priestess Enheduanna recorded this in the third millennium BCE:


Quote
these two SHE changed / renamed / reed-marsh woman     reed-marsh man / ordained sacred attendants / of ecstasy and trance / the head-overturned pili-pili / the chief hero kurgarra / enter ecstatic trance

So yeah, she was in charge of ecstatic celebrations led by trans people. They got that much right.
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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2024, 04:42:59 pm »
from the Southern Poverty Law Center:

U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson appeared Wednesday with pastor Jonathan Cahn – whose sermon highlighted three ancient deities which Cahn equated to demonic spirits that have now “come to America” – at the anti-LGBTQ+ hate group Family Research Council’s National Gathering for Prayer and Repentance.

'Cahn claimed three ancient deities named Ba’al, Ishtar and Moloch compose “a dark trinity” of spirits currently operating in the U.S. to drive God from public life, seduce the culture through “sexual revolution” and drive parents to “sacrifice their children.”

'Cahn claimed the activities of Ishtar in particular are represented by abortion, gender-affirming care and LGBTQ+ pride month. “She was connected with” the rainbow, Cahn said, and she was “the goddess of parades, parades that celebrated the alteration of gender.” He also said she would “possess the culture” in “one month of all months: the month of June.” '


To which I can only say: Welcome, Ishtar!

It gets even better -

He claimed that Ishtar, an ancient Sumerian goddess whom some ultra-conservative Christians view as a demon, has returned to earth to seek vengeance on Christians, the CBC reported.

Cahn believes Ishtar and other pagan deities were able to return to the earth because the 1969 Stonewall riots – which birthed the modern LGBTQ+ movement – opened a portal to another realm, the CBC said.

Emphasis mine.

Growing up, I was taught that there was only one God, and other gods were actually just Satan. Singular. Like, literally just Satan in a big trench coat.

That eventually turned in to them being demons, under Satans control.

But now we have a prominent Evangelical pastor "confirming" the existence of other Deities that act independently of Satan and have their own specific powers and abilities?

I have never heard of Evangelical Polytheism before!

I'm actually genuinely fascinated by this evolution in Christian thinking.

It sure looks like it's gone from "all other gods are just Satan in a trench coat" to "those are just demons under Satans control" to "they're other gods but they're bad and on Satans side".

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2024, 04:47:36 pm »
from the Southern Poverty Law Center:

U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson appeared Wednesday with pastor Jonathan Cahn – whose sermon highlighted three ancient deities which Cahn equated to demonic spirits that have now “come to America” – at the anti-LGBTQ+ hate group Family Research Council’s National Gathering for Prayer and Repentance.

'Cahn claimed three ancient deities named Ba’al, Ishtar and Moloch compose “a dark trinity” of spirits currently operating in the U.S. to drive God from public life, seduce the culture through “sexual revolution” and drive parents to “sacrifice their children.”

'Cahn claimed the activities of Ishtar in particular are represented by abortion, gender-affirming care and LGBTQ+ pride month. “She was connected with” the rainbow, Cahn said, and she was “the goddess of parades, parades that celebrated the alteration of gender.” He also said she would “possess the culture” in “one month of all months: the month of June.” '


To which I can only say: Welcome, Ishtar!

Ok, I get the whole 'Pagan Gods' coming back to Earth to corrupt teh youths with sex and gayness, but why June? Is June especially 'pagan' and nobody told me? I mean, if he said October, I'd get it. But June?

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2024, 05:02:33 pm »
Ok, I get the whole 'Pagan Gods' coming back to Earth to corrupt teh youths with sex and gayness, but why June? Is June especially 'pagan' and nobody told me? I mean, if he said October, I'd get it. But June?

Presumably because June is Pride month. As far as I know, there's no particular historical association between Ishtar and early-to-midsummer, though.
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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2024, 06:46:24 pm »
It sure looks like it's gone from "all other gods are just Satan in a trench coat" to "those are just demons under Satans control" to "they're other gods but they're bad and on Satans side".

Sounds like the next step is, 'Satan is just three short deities in a trenchcoat.'  ;D

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2024, 12:13:44 pm »
He claimed that Ishtar, an ancient Sumerian goddess whom some ultra-conservative Christians view as a demon, has returned to earth to seek vengeance on Christians, the CBC reported.

...But now we have a prominent Evangelical pastor "confirming" the existence of other Deities that act independently of Satan and have their own specific powers and abilities?

I have never heard of Evangelical Polytheism before!

I'm actually genuinely fascinated by this evolution in Christian thinking.

It sure looks like it's gone from "all other gods are just Satan in a trench coat" to "those are just demons under Satans control" to "they're other gods but they're bad and on Satans side".

Am I missing that last leap? Isn't Cahn in fact advocating that what the ancients mistook for gods were actually demons?

Interestingly, in a completely unrelated book I'm finishing (Making Room: Three Decades of Fighting for Beds, Belonging, and a Safe Place for LGBTQ Youth by Carl Siciliano), I just came across a reference to Moloch:

"In Old Testament times, some of Israel's neighbors worshiped a vicious, bloodthirsty god they called Moloch. Moloch demanded a child sacrifice, and to appease the brutal deity, his devotees handed over their children to be killed. "But go and learn what this means," Jesus said, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." Parents may imagine that they are adhering  to a moral path when they reject their LGBT children, but this torrent of kids sacrificed to the streets proves they follow Moloch, not Christ."

...but was there really a Moloch, outside of the fevered Judeo-Christian imagination? (It should be noted that the author is an openly gay, devout Christian raised in the Catholic tradition.) Reference to such a deity is apparently to be found only in the Christian bible. So one of the "demons" unleashed by Stonewall may be of Biblical followers' own fantastical creation.

Moloch certainly makes for a handy boogeyman. Even today, I've seen him referenced metaphorically (and perhaps even as a literal threat) particularly from the lips of anti-abortion crusaders.

Does anybody have any good intel on "Moloch"?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 12:29:47 pm by Altair »
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2024, 03:49:39 pm »
Presumably because June is Pride month. As far as I know, there's no particular historical association between Ishtar and early-to-midsummer, though.

That would actually make some 'sense' then.

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2024, 03:51:30 pm »
Am I missing that last leap? Isn't Cahn in fact advocating that what the ancients mistook for gods were actually demons?

Interestingly, in a completely unrelated book I'm finishing (Making Room: Three Decades of Fighting for Beds, Belonging, and a Safe Place for LGBTQ Youth by Carl Siciliano), I just came across a reference to Moloch:

"In Old Testament times, some of Israel's neighbors worshiped a vicious, bloodthirsty god they called Moloch. Moloch demanded a child sacrifice, and to appease the brutal deity, his devotees handed over their children to be killed. "But go and learn what this means," Jesus said, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." Parents may imagine that they are adhering  to a moral path when they reject their LGBT children, but this torrent of kids sacrificed to the streets proves they follow Moloch, not Christ."

...but was there really a Moloch, outside of the fevered Judeo-Christian imagination? (It should be noted that the author is an openly gay, devout Christian raised in the Catholic tradition.) Reference to such a deity is apparently to be found only in the Christian bible. So one of the "demons" unleashed by Stonewall may be of Biblical followers' own fantastical creation.

Moloch certainly makes for a handy boogeyman. Even today, I've seen him referenced metaphorically (and perhaps even as a literal threat) particularly from the lips of anti-abortion crusaders.

Does anybody have any good intel on "Moloch"?

This is giving me deja vu. I'm sure I have read something, at some point, explaining that Moloch was a fictional god, rather than a historical one. That is, he existed only in the Bible, and none of the people who actually lived there actually worshipped him. However, I can't quite remember when, or where, so I can't find it again.

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2024, 06:40:02 pm »
Sounds like the next step is, 'Satan is just three short deities in a trenchcoat.'  ;D

Sunflower

A flasher trenchcoat, presumably ;D

Also:

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Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!

Isis, Isis, Ra Ra Ra!

 ;)
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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2024, 05:57:23 am »
A flasher trenchcoat, presumably ;D

Heh! Or maybe (if there's any difference) a child-molester one, since Moloch is involved.

On which note:
Does anybody have any good intel on "Moloch"?

This is giving me deja vu. I'm sure I have read something, at some point, explaining that Moloch was a fictional god, rather than a historical one. That is, he existed only in the Bible, and none of the people who actually lived there actually worshipped him. However, I can't quite remember when, or where, so I can't find it again.

Wikipedia is far from perfect, but it seems at any rate to do on this topic what it does well on most others, provide a good start point/overview.

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2024, 05:18:44 pm »
Am I missing that last leap? Isn't Cahn in fact advocating that what the ancients mistook for gods were actually demons?

That's kind of what the psalm says (in Greek translation): "The gods of the nations are demons." And Paul quotes this. But what does it actually mean? Nowadays in Christian parlance "demon" simply means "fallen angel" and there is a common narrative of a rebellion in heaven and all that. However in Paul's day "daemon" was still being used to mean various types of divine beings, often tutelary spirits of some locale. They could be good or bad. The angel of the pool at Bethesda would qualify as a daemon by this usage, as would many other angels who are assigned territories, elements, planets, etc. So "the gods of the nations are demons" could simply be read as, "their gods are parochial, petty." And I think this reading is borne out by the next line: "But the LORD made the heavens." Your gods are little, ours is big.

Christian evaluations of polytheist deities have been all over the place. The idea that they are evil spirits deceiving people into sacrificing to them was not the only one. It was around as a polemical bludgeon but there were other ways of thinking. For instance, that the pagan gods are true divinity imperfectly understood. The most influential work of Christian angelology, On the Celestial Hierarchy, basically maps the gods as arranged by Proclus onto the angelic hierarchy. The Christian fathers who amply borrowed from Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Porphyry, and Proclus would not have done so if they thought these men were demon-worshipers.

There's a story that Elder Porphyrios (recently canonized by the Orthodox) told. He was in an art museum in Athens and he came up to a statue of Zeus. A tour guide asked him what he thought of it. He said, "I see that the artist who made it had a great sense of the divine. Look at Zeus. Although he is hurling his thunderbolt at mankind, yet his face is serene. He is not angry. He is dispassionate... It tells us that God is without passion, even when he punishes."

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Re: "Ba'al! Ishtar! Moloch!"
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2024, 02:32:14 pm »
Does anybody have any good intel on "Moloch"?

Apparently nobody has "good intel" on Moloch, considering how many different theories exist as to who or what he was. As Wikipedia notes, we have no attestation of a god named Moloch from outside of the Bible, where he is a dire presence repeatedly associated with the kind of pagan gods that Jews (and later, with the creation of the Christian Bible/New Testament, Christians) were supposed to shun.

A quick look at some papers on Academia.edu gives us some more info: the root mlk used for Moloch does not seem to connect to any gods of the time and place as their actual name. It does appear to be connected to the root for ruler/king, which may have derived from an early meaning where it was an epithet used for certain gods when offering them child sacrifices.

The twist here is that we don't know if those "child sacrifices" were alive at the time, or whether they'd already perished and were being offered up to a god as a funeral rite specific to infants. Frankly, the latter strikes me as more likely given the infant mortality of the time; there's a reason early Jews were instructed to wait eight days before circumcising a male baby and officially welcoming him into the community. It seems plausible that in pre-Jewish days in the region, this waiting period was instated so that the large number of infants who died at birth or shortly after could be easily offered up to a god instead of given more complex and effortful funeral rites. In that case, later religious thinkers who put forth the content of the Torah may have rejected this form of funeral rite for similar reasons they did tattoos: as a way of distancing the proto-Jewish people from the practices of their cultural neighbors and carving out a new religious niche for them.

There is limited evidence (from Philo of Byblos) of a Phoenician sacrificial rite in which a child was sacrificed to a god by fire, and the story of the Binding of Isaac in the Torah may be a reference to a form of actual child sacrifice. However, for purely practical reasons, these sacrifices could not feasibly have been as common or as numerous as the ones claimed to have been made to "Moloch."

My best guess would be that a common practice of immolating the corpses of infants who died in the first few days of life to dedicate them to a god was later conflated with a much rarer form of actual child sacrifice, and the word "Moloch" when used in relation to this is derived from the epithet of various different Canaanite or Phoenician gods under the specific circumstances of them accepting those sacrifices. But we don't have enough information to say with any certainty if this is true.
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