collapse

Important Announcement

Changing the Guard at The Cauldron

Sunflower is the new Host of The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum
Please read this thread for more information.

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Christo-paganism  (Read 4882 times)

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Christo-paganism
« on: October 15, 2014, 09:47:50 pm »
This thread got me thinking about christo-paganism. I've never really stopped believing in God and I even pray to him occasionally. Yet I've never really taken any steps to build a Christo-pagan worship or belief system.

My spiritual life is pretty fluid right now, and I'm kinda curious to explore what that would look like for me: What sort of debate would I encounter, would my impressions of it stand against challenge, and what sort of research/learning/growth would it inspire?  

I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2450
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 154
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 10:34:17 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;162412
This thread got me thinking about christo-paganism. I've never really stopped believing in God and I even pray to him occasionally. Yet I've never really taken any steps to build a Christo-pagan worship or belief system.

My spiritual life is pretty fluid right now, and I'm kinda curious to explore what that would look like for me: What sort of debate would I encounter, would my impressions of it stand against challenge, and what sort of research/learning/growth would it inspire?  

I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)


Start with this.  Then this.

;)
Spider Man 3 never happened. Change my mind.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8226
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 248
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 01:20:21 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;162412
I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)

 
Darkhawk's article On Eclecticism has lots of good advice for how to combine religions/paths without making a complete mess.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 08:57:26 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;162421
Start with this.  Then this.

;)

 
Oooh those look interesting, especially the first one.

NightQueen

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 02:49:47 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;162412
This thread got me thinking about christo-paganism. I've never really stopped believing in God and I even pray to him occasionally. Yet I've never really taken any steps to build a Christo-pagan worship or belief system.

My spiritual life is pretty fluid right now, and I'm kinda curious to explore what that would look like for me: What sort of debate would I encounter, would my impressions of it stand against challenge, and what sort of research/learning/growth would it inspire?  

I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)

 
I suppose a lot the issues would depend on how you interpret the first commandment.  It's either (depending how you number them) "I am the Lord thy God," or "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."  Now either way I don't necessarily see this as prohibition of acknowledging other gods, it just means that you would have to put the God of Abraham first.

EclecticWheel

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Location: Texas
  • Posts: 652
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 151
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Re-evaluating/ Star & Marian Rites, Agnostic with faith
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 02:57:11 pm »
Quote from: NightQueen;162862
I suppose a lot the issues would depend on how you interpret the first commandment.  It's either (depending how you number them) "I am the Lord thy God," or "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."  Now either way I don't necessarily see this as prohibition of acknowledging other gods, it just means that you would have to put the God of Abraham first.

 
Yes, although some people who identify as Christopagan may not consider every part of the Bible important.

The book recommended above, Christopaganism: An Inclusive Path, by Joyce and River Higginbotham, is a really interesting read, but I will warn you, there's some stuff in the beginning claiming that Christianity was ripped off old pagan religions.  That part has much inaccurate information that tends to get recycled in all kinds of material.  Otherwise, I found it a really good reading, especially since it includes several interviews with real people about their paths.  The other book, Jesus Through Pagan Eyes, by Rev. Mark Townsend, I haven't read, but I think it might be interesting as well as Mark Townsend is a pretty interesting man.  Originally he was a priest in the Church of England but became a priest in a liberal Old Catholic denomination later on (Open Episcopal Church).  I believe he is also a neo-Druid as well as a magician.

Most approaches I've seen to Christopaganism combine it with neo-Wicca.  If you find anything else, though, I'd be interested to know about it.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 03:42:49 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;162421
Start with this.  Then this.

;)



Quote from: SunflowerP
Darkhawk's article On Eclecticism has lots of good advice for how to combine religions/paths without making a complete mess.


Thanks for the recommendations. :)


Quote
The book recommended above, Christopaganism: An Inclusive Path, by Joyce and River Higginbotham, is a really interesting read, but I will warn you, there's some stuff in the beginning claiming that Christianity was ripped off old pagan religions. That part has much inaccurate information that tends to get recycled in all kinds of material.

Most approaches I've seen to Christopaganism combine it with neo-Wicca. If you find anything else, though, I'd be interested to know about it.




That's fine. I think to be on either extreme in that debate ignores the fact that cultures are naturally influenced by other cultures. Christianity has pagan influences and Neo-Wicca has Christian influences. It is what it is, and the overlap is potentially interesting.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Mountain Cat

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 197
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 06:46:19 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;162421
Start with this.  Then this.

;)


I just got both of these. Thanks. Both have encouraged me to do more historical and mythic research. Both got me doing quite a lot of thinking, very illuminating. I found they helped me to go where I was already going, but with more knowledge, security and, like I said, a need for more research.

:)

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2015, 07:36:52 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;162412
This thread got me thinking about christo-paganism. I've never really stopped believing in God and I even pray to him occasionally. Yet I've never really taken any steps to build a Christo-pagan worship or belief system.

My spiritual life is pretty fluid right now, and I'm kinda curious to explore what that would look like for me: What sort of debate would I encounter, would my impressions of it stand against challenge, and what sort of research/learning/growth would it inspire?  

I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)

 
I am a syncretist myself. I find much of value in books by the Christian authors Evagrius of Pontus, Pseudo-Dionysius, John Scotus Eriugena, Eckehart, Marsilio Ficino, Paracelsus, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, Heinrich Khunrat, Jakob Boehme, Robert Fludd, Athanasius Kircher, Ivan Lopukhin, Eliphas Levi, Arthur Edward Waite, Evelyn Underhill, Dion Fortune, Gareth Knight and Matthew Fox.

If the Supreme Being exists (and the only ones I have read denying that are either Atheists or hard polytheists) it may be known under many names: Ahura Mazda, Amun, Brahman, Ayn Soph, Eheyeh/YHWH, Allah, Parvardigar, Ik Onkar, The Monad, To Hen, Chronos (in the Orphic sense, not the Homeric one) et cetera. The Universal prayer - a poem by Alexander Pope - is delightfully syncretic reading (written by a Catholic!).

The pantheon you worship in your pagan path (Does Heathen mean 'Norse Pagan'?) are possibly part of the emanatory chain from the Supreme Being on the intelligible, intellective, hypercosmic and encosmic levels of reality, or they might be ancestor spirits who have achieved apotheosis, or they might be powerful thoughtforms. You would probably find interesting reading if you try to read Proclus, one of the last Pagan philosophers in the Ancient world.

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2015, 09:02:48 pm »
In my former reply, I forgot to explain how the Pagan philosopher Iamblichus looked upon this. His view was that Pagan deities and Jewish-Christian archangels are the same sort of beings.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8226
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 248
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2015, 09:12:58 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;177531


 
A Reminder:
Hi, FraterBenedict,

Just a quick note:  Please remember to quote, even if you're just  replying to the first message in the thread, or making additional remarks on your own previous post.  It makes the discussion  easier to follow, and it's required by  our  rules. (If you're using tapatalk on a phone, please hold your finger down on the message you wish to reply to until the quote function pops up.)

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary, but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
Sunflower, TC Forum Staff
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Demophon

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 258
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 07:28:54 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;162412
This thread got me thinking about christo-paganism. I've never really stopped believing in God and I even pray to him occasionally. Yet I've never really taken any steps to build a Christo-pagan worship or belief system.

My spiritual life is pretty fluid right now, and I'm kinda curious to explore what that would look like for me: What sort of debate would I encounter, would my impressions of it stand against challenge, and what sort of research/learning/growth would it inspire?  

I don't even know where to begin with this experiment, so throw anything at me I guess. (Please?)

 
This might not be exactly what you meant, but I've been reading Gerald Gardner's book, The Meaning of Witchcraft, and though I'm only about 50 pages in, he has already said several times that the mother-and-son veneration of the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus in Catholic Christianity is very similar to the worship of the Great Mother and her son in the "witch cult." He has also stated that witchcraft (and I'm sure we can extend that to most forms of paganism) doesn't forbid practitioners from also going to church. It's definitely what I needed to read right now.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10165
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 253
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 08:00:23 am »
Quote from: Demophon;177677
This might not be exactly what you meant, but I've been reading Gerald Gardner's book, The Meaning of Witchcraft, and though I'm only about 50 pages in, he has already said several times that the mother-and-son veneration of the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus in Catholic Christianity is very similar to the worship of the Great Mother and her son in the "witch cult." He has also stated that witchcraft (and I'm sure we can extend that to most forms of paganism) doesn't forbid practitioners from also going to church. It's definitely what I needed to read right now.

Just remember that the fact that Gardner thought it "very similar" does not actually mean that it is. I know adherents of both religions who would strongly disagree with him. :)

As for the last sentence, that's true of most non-monotheistic religions. In most polytheistic religions, few see anything wrong with attending ceremonies for a deity of a different pantheon.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3098
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 649
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2015, 05:11:45 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;177677
This might not be exactly what you meant, but I've been reading Gerald Gardner's book, The Meaning of Witchcraft, and though I'm only about 50 pages in, he has already said several times that the mother-and-son veneration of the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus in Catholic Christianity is very similar to the worship of the Great Mother and her son in the "witch cult." He has also stated that witchcraft (and I'm sure we can extend that to most forms of paganism) doesn't forbid practitioners from also going to church. It's definitely what I needed to read right now.

 
To add to what Randall said below, it's important to remember the context that Gardner was writing in: to an almost entirely Christian audience (though the approach via Catholicism is, now I think about it, historically really interesting for England) and that one of the things that Gardner was very talented at was coming up with ways to explain things that made sense to his audience.

And yes, witchcraft religions don't generally have much objection to people going to church. Christian churches, however, often do, or at least might if you are at all explicit about it outside of special events.

(I cheerfully went to Easter Vigil for the ritual of a friend becoming Catholic a few years ago, and when she sat down after the actual ritual piece that did that, whispered "Happy initiation!" at her, and she cracked up, because it is. But I could not be a regular member in good standing, because I am, in fact, a polytheist not a monotheist (or at least a henotheist pointed in the Christian direction, which I actually was for a long time before I had the lable for it.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Demophon

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 258
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Christo-paganism
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2015, 06:42:14 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;177835
Just remember that the fact that Gardner thought it "very similar" does not actually mean that it is. I know adherents of both religions who would strongly disagree with him. :)

 
That's true. Maybe I should have been more clear that Gardner wasn't saying that the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary was the same as the religion of the witches, just that it resembled the worship of the witches' goddess in many ways. He said the same thing about other traditions that also aren't directly related to pagan witchcraft, like Sumerian goddesses, and the cult of Cybele from Phrygia.

Quote from: Jenett;177852
To add to what Randall said below, it's important to remember the context that Gardner was writing in: to an almost entirely Christian audience (though the approach via Catholicism is, now I think about it, historically really interesting for England) and that one of the things that Gardner was very talented at was coming up with ways to explain things that made sense to his audience.


It is interesting, and I've often wondered if Gardner was influenced at all by the Oxford Movement, which started in the mid-nineteenth century as a revival of the Catholic style of worship within the Church of England, and was becoming more prominent by the early 20th century. Anglican churches that follow this movement (also called Tractarian or Anglo-Catholic) have a much stronger medieval flavour than even Roman Catholic churches post-Vatican II, and if they use the Book of Common Prayer, the services are in Elizabethan English that BTW witches seem to like so much, too. there are usually lots of candles and incense in these kinds of churches, as well as ornately decorated altars and statues of the Madonna and other saints.

I've always found Wiccan ritual in general to be very similar to Catholicism, maybe because it is the most accessible form of mysticism and borderline "magical" ritual in western society, so it could have been a source of inspiration for occultists.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
110 Replies
12721 Views
Last post July 18, 2015, 07:33:39 pm
by RecycledBenedict
86 Replies
9741 Views
Last post July 05, 2012, 11:24:15 am
by DancesWithHorses
21 Replies
2680 Views
Last post September 11, 2013, 01:14:07 pm
by MadZealot
5 Replies
686 Views
Last post June 19, 2015, 03:31:36 am
by Morrigan
2 Replies
599 Views
Last post July 05, 2019, 06:26:50 pm
by EclecticWheel

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 22
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall