christianity from paganism

[arete]

That’s a bit of a stretch. There are arguments for gentile influences on Christianity, but yours aren’t very strong frankly.

I see christianity as a vulgar stolen pagan religion. The only ''originality'' it has is the miracles.

[RandallS]

is there love in the old testament? no. it's only in the new testament. 

Have you ever actually READ the Old Testament? If you had, I doubt you would be making such a silly claim.

[RandallS]

I see christianity as a vulgar stolen pagan religion. The only ''originality'' it has is the miracles.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, no matter how factually inaccurate. Just don't expect much support for contra-factual beliefs on TC.

[arete]

Have you ever actually READ the Old Testament? If you had, I doubt you would be making such a silly claim.

doesn't it say ''an eye for an eye''? where is the love jesus taught where you suppose to turn the other cheek? 

[arete]

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, no matter how factually inaccurate. Just don't expect much support for contra-factual beliefs on TC.

Maybe I can fix my mistakes. I just say my opinion. 

[PerditaPickle]

Maybe I can fix my mistakes. I just say my opinion. 

I just want to mention the idea of multiple independent discovery / simultaneous invention.  It's accepted in modern times (in science and technology) that two different people can come up with the same creation without one stealing it from the other, through completely independent work.

Why can't different religions over the ages be considered to have come up with similar ideas, concepts etc etc without one having stolen it from any of the others?  Taking inspiration from something, building on it, creating something different out of it is also perfectly okay, surely?  (Otherwise I'm definitely "plagiarising" lots of sources in the process of coming up with my own belief system - but sorry not sorry, I'm making something which works for me, where none of the existing systems I've read about fully resonate with me.)

(Okay, in the realm of science and technology you'd have to have research, notes etc as evidence that you'd genuinely done the work to come up with the thing independently of the other person, to defend the fact that it's not theft of intellectual property.   And you're not going to be able to obtain that when it comes to religions, especially very long standing ones.)

[Edit: inserted a missing word]

[ehbowen]

Maybe I can fix my mistakes. I just say my opinion. 

With all respect, arete, I think one of your problems is that you are captive to a worldview which sees time as strictly linear. If you see a Christian concept which is predated by a pagan concept your automatic response seems to be to assume that Christianity "stole" it. Not necessarily the case. As Pickle points out, it's not uncommon for two (or more) disparate people to originate the same concept independently; no theft required. For another, though, remember that we are dealing with entities who may not see or respond to events in the same strictly linear fashion that we are required to. I can postulate some alternate sequences of events which reconcile Louisvillian's contention that "the Biblical account in Exodus is not accurate to history" as well as our resident Hindus' karmic assertions regarding "billions of lifetimes"...even in the most generous evolutionary timeline I am aware of there is no contention that humans existed in our present forms more than a million or so years before the present era.

You seem to be working diligently to disqualify and hence disregard any Christian concepts. Can you think where the path might lead if you were to put equally as much effort into reconciling Christian claims and concepts with the world you see around you?

[Chatelaine]

doesn't it say ''an eye for an eye''? where is the love jesus taught where you suppose to turn the other cheek? 

It says a lot more - it's nearly 600,000 words long, after all. Plenty of love, and plenty of references to both the financial and religious importance of vineyards and wine, incidentally.

[Morag]

is there love in the old testament? no. it's only in the new testament. 

"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—
    for your love is more delightful than wine.
Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;
    your name is like perfume poured out.
    No wonder the young women love you!
Take me away with you—let us hurry!
    Let the king bring me into his chambers.

We rejoice and delight in you;
    we will praise your love more than wine.

How right they are to adore you!

Dark am I, yet lovely,
    daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
    like the tent curtains of Solomon.
Do not stare at me because I am dark,
    because I am darkened by the sun.
My mother’s sons were angry with me
    and made me take care of the vineyards;
    my own vineyard I had to neglect.
Tell me, you whom I love,
    where you graze your flock
    and where you rest your sheep at midday.
Why should I be like a veiled woman
    beside the flocks of your friends?

If you do not know, most beautiful of women,
    follow the tracks of the sheep
and graze your young goats
    by the tents of the shepherds.

I liken you, my darling, to a mare
    among Pharaoh’s chariot horses.
Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings,
    your neck with strings of jewels.
We will make you earrings of gold,
    studded with silver.

While the king was at his table,
    my perfume spread its fragrance.
My beloved is to me a sachet of myrrh
    resting between my breasts.
My beloved is to me a cluster of henna blossoms
    from the vineyards of En Gedi.

How beautiful you are, my darling!
    Oh, how beautiful!
    Your eyes are doves.

How handsome you are, my beloved!
    Oh, how charming!
    And our bed is verdant."

-Song of Songs, New International Version*, from the Old Testament. Here are 8 pages of what is basically a romantic erotica story in the Old Testament, with dozens of translations available. And guess what? It's not the only example of love in the Old Testament!

*Bolding is mine, not the translation's.

Saying "There's no love in the Old Testament" isn't an opinion. It's an attempt at a factual claim, except it's not factual. It's verifiably false.

[Hariti]

as well as our resident Hindus' karmic assertions regarding "billions of lifetimes"...even in the most generous evolutionary timeline I am aware of there is no contention that humans existed in our present forms more than a million or so years before the present era.

I've always liked to think that a lot of how that works involves alternate realities and alien planets, but of course non-liner time also factors into the story... in fact, It's a key part of Hindu mythology.

 I just think that it's cool to imagine that are other planets with sapient life on them, as well as that there are other universes with different versions of our own planet (and probably different versions of the aforementioned alien planets... alienception!)

The idea that some of those billions of lives might have been on a version of earth where the dinosaurs never went extinct, or where Rome never collapsed, or on some alien world inhabited by beings much more advanced than ourselves, it just too cool to not ponder, and both of those ideas do have enough basis in Hindu mythology to make them at least plausible.

Yeah, yeah, it's off topic and I'm a nerd, I know! I couldn't resist.

[MadZealot]

the vine is stolen from greek paganism. the vine is Dionysus. christians stole the vine and made it jesus and called it True saying that dionysus is a fake vine/false god. we learned that at school. well, teachers didn't use the word steal since at school they taught us christianity as the only true religion. yikes.

What in the crabappled horsefuck is this shit?

[MadZealot]

Christianity took love from paganism.
 In greek religion there is the primordial god Eros (love) who sets the world in motion. Don't christians speak their god is a god of love?

Stole adultery from the Greeks, too. See Zeus.
Rape, too.
And murder.
And

[arete]

With all respect, arete, I think one of your problems is that you are captive to a worldview which sees time as strictly linear. If you see a Christian concept which is predated by a pagan concept your automatic response seems to be to assume that Christianity "stole" it. Not necessarily the case. As Pickle points out, it's not uncommon for two (or more) disparate people to originate the same concept independently; no theft required. For another, though, remember that we are dealing with entities who may not see or respond to events in the same strictly linear fashion that we are required to. I can postulate some alternate sequences of events which reconcile Louisvillian's contention that "the Biblical account in Exodus is not accurate to history" as well as our resident Hindus' karmic assertions regarding "billions of lifetimes"...even in the most generous evolutionary timeline I am aware of there is no contention that humans existed in our present forms more than a million or so years before the present era.

You seem to be working diligently to disqualify and hence disregard any Christian concepts. Can you think where the path might lead if you were to put equally as much effort into reconciling Christian claims and concepts with the world you see around you?

I just want to mention the idea of multiple independent discovery / simultaneous invention.  It's accepted in modern times (in science and technology) that two different people can come up with the same creation without one stealing it from the other, through completely independent work.

Why can't different religions over the ages be considered to have come up with similar ideas, concepts etc etc without one having stolen it from any of the others?  Taking inspiration from something, building on it, creating something different out of it is also perfectly okay, surely?  (Otherwise I'm definitely "plagiarising" lots of sources in the process of coming up with my own belief system - but sorry not sorry, I'm making something which works for me, where none of the existing systems I've read about fully resonate with me.)

(Okay, in the realm of science and technology you'd have to have research, notes etc as evidence that you'd genuinely done the work to come up with the thing independently of the other person, to defend the fact that it's not theft of intellectual property.   And you're not going to be able to obtain that when it comes to religions, especially very long standing ones.)

[Edit: inserted a missing word]

The Christianity is the only true religion notion bothers me. That's why I made this thread.

[Yei]

The Christianity is the only true religion notion bothers me. That's why I made this thread.

What does any of this have to do with the notion of Christianity being the 'true religion'?

[arete]

"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—
    for your love is more delightful than wine.
Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;
    your name is like perfume poured out.
    No wonder the young women love you!
Take me away with you—let us hurry!
    Let the king bring me into his chambers.

We rejoice and delight in you;
    we will praise your love more than wine.

How right they are to adore you!

Dark am I, yet lovely,
    daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
    like the tent curtains of Solomon.
Do not stare at me because I am dark,
    because I am darkened by the sun.
My mother’s sons were angry with me
    and made me take care of the vineyards;
    my own vineyard I had to neglect.
Tell me, you whom I love,
    where you graze your flock
    and where you rest your sheep at midday.
Why should I be like a veiled woman
    beside the flocks of your friends?

If you do not know, most beautiful of women,
    follow the tracks of the sheep
and graze your young goats
    by the tents of the shepherds.

I liken you, my darling, to a mare
    among Pharaoh’s chariot horses.
Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings,
    your neck with strings of jewels.
We will make you earrings of gold,
    studded with silver.

While the king was at his table,
    my perfume spread its fragrance.
My beloved is to me a sachet of myrrh
    resting between my breasts.
My beloved is to me a cluster of henna blossoms
    from the vineyards of En Gedi.

How beautiful you are, my darling!
    Oh, how beautiful!
    Your eyes are doves.

How handsome you are, my beloved!
    Oh, how charming!
    And our bed is verdant."

-Song of Songs, New International Version*, from the Old Testament. Here are 8 pages of what is basically a romantic erotica story in the Old Testament, with dozens of translations available. And guess what? It's not the only example of love in the Old Testament!

*Bolding is mine, not the translation's.

Saying "There's no love in the Old Testament" isn't an opinion. It's an attempt at a factual claim, except it's not factual. It's verifiably false.

It describes love between a man and a woman. I hope the old testament doesn't confine love only in this circumstance. Or it does?