collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: christianity from paganism  (Read 2042 times)

Jenett

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 2856
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 401
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2018, 01:57:51 pm »
I don't have sources. I inquire why the Abrahamics who lived in the desert give so much value to a tree?

Two reasons: climate changes over time (don't assume that's what there now is what's always been there!) and people do tend to value what's not abundant (so even in the places trees were not common, they might be highly valued.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Redfaery

Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2018, 02:04:37 pm »
I don't have sources. I inquire why the Abrahamics who lived in the desert give so much value to a tree?
You said it was "taken" from Norse Paganism, which is simply not supported by any evidence I've ever seen. Yggdrasil is an Axis Mundi, and the Tree in Genesis is...not. They simply do not serve the same function.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

arete

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2018
  • Posts: 225
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: gr
  • Total likes: 30
    • View Profile
  • Religion: pagan
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2018, 02:06:43 pm »
You said it was "taken" from Norse Paganism, which is simply not supported by any evidence I've ever seen. Yggdrasil is an Axis Mundi, and the Tree in Genesis is...not. They simply do not serve the same function.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
I don't think they copied the exact tree, rather than they were strongly influenced by yggdrasil.

Noctua

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 198
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 66
    • View Profile
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2018, 03:18:20 pm »
I don't think they copied the exact tree, rather than they were strongly influenced by yggdrasil.

For that to happen though, it would mean that there would have been direct communication (and therefore trade) between Norse/Germanic peoples and the Middle East in or around 600 BCE or earlier, as that was the time that the books of the old testament were first being written.

I think it's far more likely that two different societies came up with similar stories at the same time- heck, that kind of stuff happens all the time. Look at all the different mythologies that have flood stories- there was probably something that prompted them to all come up with this mythos, but they all did it a bit differently. Or a more modern example is the invention of Calculus, both Leibniz and Newton independently came to the development of the same system of mathematics. Newton even accused Leibniz of plagiarism but examination of both of their notes determined they both did it independently.

Zlote Jablko

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2018
  • Location: Texas
  • Posts: 37
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Slavic/ PIE Recon
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2018, 06:54:24 pm »
For that to happen though, it would mean that there would have been direct communication (and therefore trade) between Norse/Germanic peoples and the Middle East in or around 600 BCE or earlier, as that was the time that the books of the old testament were first being written.

I think it's far more likely that two different societies came up with similar stories at the same time- heck, that kind of stuff happens all the time. Look at all the different mythologies that have flood stories- there was probably something that prompted them to all come up with this mythos, but they all did it a bit differently. Or a more modern example is the invention of Calculus, both Leibniz and Newton independently came to the development of the same system of mathematics. Newton even accused Leibniz of plagiarism but examination of both of their notes determined they both did it independently.

Or another, more plausible explanation is that both were inspired by an even older body of myths, rather than either one drawing directly from the other.

In reconstructed PIE (Proto-Indo-European) mythology, there is a consistent appearance of a tree with magical fruit, as well as an underworld serpent at the base of the axis mundi (mountain or tree.) That definitely has a relationship with Norse mythology. With Hebrew or Semitic culture, it’s a little bit hazy how they could have inherited that. Maybe the wicked serpent was influenced in part by the Hittite Illuyanka, much as the Semitic Baal Hadad was syncretized with Teshub/Tarhun. But that’s just a thought.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4668
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 482
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2018, 05:55:23 pm »
The Bible speaks of the tree of life. Isn't it taken from the tree Yggdrasil of the norse religion?

No.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

arete

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2018
  • Posts: 225
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: gr
  • Total likes: 30
    • View Profile
  • Religion: pagan
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2018, 02:12:26 pm »
What did christianity take from Paganism?
Christianity has something unique that paganism doesnot have. Christianity has the strongest faith and the strongest miracles. That is why Christianity is vital and unique.  :)

EnderDragonFire

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 605
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 179
  • Ad dea gloriam
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Sri Vaishnavism
  • Preferred Pronouns: any
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2018, 03:08:49 pm »
Christianity has the strongest faith and the strongest miracles.

I happen to disagree on both points. In any faith, you can find strong believers and less-strong believers. I've met quite a few cynical Christians in my day, as well as extremely devout followers of other faiths. Of course, I've also met quite a few devout Christians as well, and cynical followers of other religions. I just don't think that level of faith correlates with what religion you follow; rather, it's an individual person who has strong or weak faith.

As for miracles, most religions claim they happen, no religion has yet proven they happen. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but there's no way to quantify which religion has stronger miracles when none of them can show any testable proof of miracles happening.

What makes Christianity unique is it's mythology, it's cosmology, it's ethics, and it's rituals. Sure, there are lots of commonalities between different religions, but that's true for all religious systems, not just Christianity.

No other religion has the same, exact, specific combination of beliefs, practices, ethics, and myths that Christianity has. It's a unique religious tradition, without needing to be "better" or "stronger" than any other.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 925
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 139
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2018, 06:25:59 pm »
I happen to disagree on both points...As for miracles, most religions claim they happen, no religion has yet proven they happen. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but there's no way to quantify which religion has stronger miracles when none of them can show any testable proof of miracles happening.

Well, although I will agree that in the present order of things, at least in our small slice of the universe, one cannot on cue show "testable proof" which would be satisfactory to those inclined to be skeptical, I do disagree with you in regards to the importance of miracles in Christianity. While I do not claim to be an expert on Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam my understanding is that if it could be shown that, for example, Muhammad was never actually caught up to Heaven or that the miraculous stories of other faith systems were fabricated or "stretched", the underlying belief systems and practices would be affected not at all.

Not so for Christianity. If it could be shown that Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary human and, especially, that the central fact of the Resurrection did not occur exactly as related, Christianity would and should collapse completely. The central observations...baptism shows that the candidate has been raised from the water as Jesus was raised from the dead. Communion..."by this you do proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." Paul said bluntly that if in this life alone we have hope then we are to be pitied more than any other men.

And while I can't prove it to the satisfaction of those who WANT to be skeptical, something happened to turn those disciples, women, and other followers from a ragtag group of fishermen cowering in an upper room for fear of the Romans and the Jews into a resolute cadre of fearless believers who were willing to withstand both Jewish leaders and Roman magistrates to their faces and to willingly go to their deaths rather than recant. That's enough to prove it to me...even without meeting His Sister!
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Louisvillian

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 379
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 31
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Syncretic religio romana/Hellenised Romano-British religion
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2018, 01:23:12 am »
Paganism is by far older than christianity. Christianity was influenced heavily from paganism, even though christians don't want to admit it. What did christianity take from Paganism?
Well, someone's been hitting that Golden Bough pretty hard.

The Romans held a festival on December 25 called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, "the birthday of the unconquered sun." Christians took the holiday and made it the birth of Jesus.
It's largely a coincidence. Christians were talking about December 25th being Jesus' nativity around fifty years before Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was established. The Roman festival was founded in 276.
It's important to remember that the Roman concept of nativity with respect to a certain deity has nothing to do with the deity's actual "birth", but with the anniversary of the dedication of a temple to that deity.

I don't have sources. I inquire why the Abrahamics who lived in the desert give so much value to a tree?
Funny that. The region in which the Abrahamic religions developed and flourished was not exactly a desert at the time. Mesopotamia and much of the Levantine coast was richly forested. The Romans deforested it.

EnderDragonFire

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 605
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 179
  • Ad dea gloriam
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Sri Vaishnavism
  • Preferred Pronouns: any
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2018, 01:25:37 am »


I can agree that miracles are more important to Christianity than to most other religious systems. What I was arguing against in my previous post was that Christian miracles are more "powerful" than other miracles in terms of frequency or potency. If you take powerful to mean "impactful on the faith" I guess Aretre has a point.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 925
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 139
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2018, 08:18:22 am »
I can agree that miracles are more important to Christianity than to most other religious systems. What I was arguing against in my previous post was that Christian miracles are more "powerful" than other miracles in terms of frequency or potency. If you take powerful to mean "impactful on the faith" I guess Aretre has a point.

I can agree with that; while I'm not familiar with claims of the miraculous in a Hindu context it can be argued successfully that the miracles of Jesus and the apostles didn't even match up with the Jewish Old Testament from a "power" standpoint...i.e., Jesus never parted the Red Sea. The Resurrection is, possibly, an exception.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Sefiru

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 1373
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 200
    • View Profile
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2018, 06:51:27 pm »
The region in which the Abrahamic religions developed and flourished was not exactly a desert at the time. Mesopotamia and much of the Levantine coast was richly forested. The Romans deforested it.

Huh, I recall reading that it was side effects of irrigation (mineral buildup in the soil) that caused the change. Of course that might be outdated/disproved by now. Do you happen to have a reference I could read up on this with?

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4668
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 482
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2018, 11:34:21 am »
Funny that. The region in which the Abrahamic religions developed and flourished was not exactly a desert at the time. Mesopotamia and much of the Levantine coast was richly forested. The Romans deforested it.

To add to that: Egypt, which imported cedar from that area (note the modern Lebanese flag is still a cedar tree) because it had no timber-producing trees of its own, had a fair amount of tree-related theology, also.  (Egyptian woodwork is full of piecework, because the trees that survived in that environment tended small and twisty and so they had to put together something like marquetry to get anywhere.)  The Tree Goddess is comparatively minor but apepars in a number of chthonic texts and illustrations, and everyone's garden-in-the-afterlife included fruiting trees as a core thing.

It's funny how a long-lived, durable entity that produces regular foodstuffs and offers shade can be really important in a desert region.  Sacred, even!
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

arete

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2018
  • Posts: 225
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: gr
  • Total likes: 30
    • View Profile
  • Religion: pagan
Re: christianity from paganism
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2018, 11:16:28 am »
For that to happen though, it would mean that there would have been direct communication (and therefore trade) between Norse/Germanic peoples and the Middle East in or around 600 BCE or earlier, as that was the time that the books of the old testament were first being written.
The Vikings were travelers. Didn't they reach middle east?

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
130 Replies
7576 Views
Last post March 10, 2014, 02:37:17 pm
by Valentine
10 Replies
2350 Views
Last post August 06, 2014, 09:18:25 am
by Nyktelios
51 Replies
5260 Views
Last post February 13, 2016, 12:37:57 am
by Jack
88 Replies
8537 Views
Last post February 17, 2016, 06:25:16 pm
by sionnachdearg
6 Replies
1205 Views
Last post November 02, 2016, 04:48:54 am
by Naomi J

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 19
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Emma-Eldritch, Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall