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Author Topic: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees  (Read 9894 times)

Owl

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 07:55:07 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;94745
I've never seen how it hurts me to work on computers for people whose positions I can't stand. They give me (their opposition) money which I get to use for all sorts of things they would not.


Exactly!  

And when it comes to weddings I think it was a bridal shop owner who said "turn away 2 dresses in one wedding?  Never!"  And I know for a fact (since I did pay for both my weddings) that many gay men I have known would spend way more than I would on a wedding.  Why turn away the money?!?!?!
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 08:44:58 pm »
Quote from: RoselynLibera;94728
I find myself conflicted. Yes, I'm sad and tired of the same-sex struggles and blatant racism but at the same time...shouldn't a business have the right to refuse a sale?

As I said, I find myself conflicted and uncertain of where it's okay to draw the line between upholding personal beliefs and extending tolerance.

 
In the state of Oregon, it's illegal for a business to discriminate based on protected classes like race, religion, or sexual orientation. If the business owner had said "your design isn't my style, sorry" that might have flown, but if you say "I won't make a cake for your wedding because you're gay" you're pretty clearly violating that law.
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 08:48:46 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;94730
In this state, a business doesn't have to give a reason to refuse service to anyone. I've used that quite a bit as my backup on issues of "get outta my store, asshole." So as horrible as it is that it would be used to further someone's bigotry, it's not a right I can honestly see taking away, because it also gives people working with the public the right to stand up for themselves when being abused. Innocent people's rights should not be taken away because some people abuse it.

 
That doesn't make any sense to me, to say that people can't discriminate is taking away the rights of innocent people. I think there's a huge difference between "get out of my store, asshole" and "get out of my store, icky gay person". It's pretty easy to write laws that make the latter illegal without outlawing the former.
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sailor

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2013, 09:01:29 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94774
That doesn't make any sense to me, to say that people can't discriminate is taking away the rights of innocent people. I think there's a huge difference between "get out of my store, asshole" and "get out of my store, icky gay person". It's pretty easy to write laws that make the latter illegal without outlawing the former.

 
OK, so who would you exclude from a store?

Talking negatively about a bunch of the books that you sell?

Wearing a t-shirt that you disagree with?

You don't like how they wear their hair?

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2013, 09:04:39 pm »
Quote from: sailor;94776
OK, so who would you exclude from a store?

Talking negatively about a bunch of the books that you sell?

Wearing a t-shirt that you disagree with?

You don't like how they wear their hair?

 
None of the above. Honestly, in my four years of retail, I never asked anybody to leave so I can't answer that question. Did you mean to address Stephy?
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2013, 09:13:35 pm »
Quote from: sailor;94776
OK, so who would you exclude from a store?

Talking negatively about a bunch of the books that you sell?

Wearing a t-shirt that you disagree with?

You don't like how they wear their hair?

 
The standard thing when this comes up in library rules discussion is that you make the decisions based on behaviour, not identity. And which often have stricter requirements, if they're public libraries, because public funds.

So, for example, you don't ban "this person seems homeless." But you can kick out someone who is sleeping in the library, or someone who leaves their belongings scattered in the aisles in an unsafe way, or someone who threatens one of the library staff (or speaks abusively to them.)

And you don't ban teenagers, but you might reasonably ban people who are unduly noisy outside the designated teen space (if there is one), or people who lounge on the stairs, or who use the wheelchair ramp to ride skateboards. (or more accurately, generally you warn people once, and then you ban them.) You might have limits about one person to a computer (if the library's had problems with a small cluster of kids taking over a computer for gaming, and getting noisier and noisier and interfering with other intended uses of the space.)

Stores can do the same sort of thing, I'd assume. The trick is that it's about the action, not the person.
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 09:20:37 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;94745
I've never seen how it hurts me to work on computers for people whose positions I can't stand. They give me (their opposition) money which I get to use for all sorts of things they would not.

 
Well obviously the bakery in question has more jobs than they know what to do with, that they can afford to not take the business.
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2013, 09:27:57 pm »
Quote from: sailor;94727
Good point. Have the gay couple spend $20,000 on a wedding or commitment ceremony and then get back the money for photos (and they don't get the photos either). Oh, and if there is another photographer there, expect a lawsuit over that just like a lawsuit over the bad photos.

Meanwhile the photographer has skipped events that would actually pay the bills.

And the second time the photographer bows out on an event for a similar group welcome to discovery.  If you can't win on the merits, bankrupt them thru lawyer's fees. Oh, and destroying e-mails, papers etc is a criminal act so yet another Black person goes to jail.

This can be carried on until everybody but the lawyers lose.


But the first time it happens, you've probably safe.  If you suspect you are being set up, give em a cake worthy of cakewrecks and give them their money back.  

Of course the truly smart thing to do is to just take the job, and as Randall points out,spend the money in a way they don't agree with.
Katrina

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2013, 10:00:25 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94778
None of the above. Honestly, in my four years of retail, I never asked anybody to leave so I can't answer that question. Did you mean to address Stephy?

 
Nope, specifically asking you.

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2013, 10:10:32 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;94788
But the first time it happens, you've probably safe.  If you suspect you are being set up, give em a cake worthy of cakewrecks and give them their money back.  

Of course the truly smart thing to do is to just take the job, and as Randall points out,spend the money in a way they don't agree with.

 
And the bakery can expect negative advertising about how horrible their cakes are.

So, I was getting paid to horrible,but not illegal, things is different than volunteering to do horrible things?  so Randall would have no moral or legal basis to turn down running the KKK's web forum if he is offered his standard rates?  Or since the KKK isn't a religious group, go with Church of the Creator.

At what point does a business person have the right to turn down a job?

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2013, 10:12:26 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;94785
Well obviously the bakery in question has more jobs than they know what to do with, that they can afford to not take the business.

 
Or they feel that their moral believes are more valuable than the business they'll lose.

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2013, 10:18:05 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;94785
Well obviously the bakery in question has more jobs than they know what to do with, that they can afford to not take the business.

 
On a sort of related note, a blog post by John Scalzi.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/02/02/solving-my-racist-sexist-homophobic-dipshit-problem/

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2013, 10:23:12 pm »
Quote from: sailor;94795
Nope, specifically asking you.

 
Can I ask what your point was, then?
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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2013, 10:25:30 pm »
Quote from: sailor;94798
At what point does a business person have the right to turn down a job?

 
They can turn down a job up until the point where they're breaking the law.

In this case, the law says businesses cannot discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, and various other protected classes.

Hence why it is illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation in this case.
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sailor

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Re: Bakery Refuses Same Sex Wedding Cake Order, Sees
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2013, 10:30:49 pm »
Quote from: Jack;94802
Can I ask what your point was, then?

 
Are you going to answer the original question?

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