Atheism and Paganism

[SunflowerP]

That sounds a lot like pandeism....

I'm just wondering if there's a reason you chose the more-specific term pandeism rather than the broader pantheism? Myself, I'd have thought the latter a closer fit to the OP's perspective, but I might be missing something, or just projecting (being a pantheist myself).

Sunflower

[Hariti]

Now, don't take this as a "Oh, they are just mad at god because their prayer didn't get answered." In the beginning, that anger sparked the thought process, but it was not the reason for my departure from a belief in god.

Oh, I completely understand. I wasn't just a borderline atheist, I was a full-force Anti-theist for several years. All because of my experiences with Christianity, the Christian God, and the Christian family and society that I was raised in.

Funnily enough, I'm actually 100% fine with Christianity now, and actually find it's theology and liturgy appealing. That happened long, long after I became a Hindu though, and while I was atheistic, I downright hated Christianity. I was convinced that God was either a sadistic asshole, or didn't exist, and eventually decided on the latter, since the formed seemed improbable. The way many people tried to *force* me back into religion didn't help matters, and made me quite cynical.

[PanSoka]

Oh, I completely understand. I wasn't just a borderline atheist, I was a full-force Anti-theist for several years. All because of my experiences with Christianity, the Christian God, and the Christian family and society that I was raised in.

Funnily enough, I'm actually 100% fine with Christianity now, and actually find it's theology and liturgy appealing. That happened long, long after I became a Hindu though, and while I was atheistic, I downright hated Christianity. I was convinced that God was either a sadistic asshole, or didn't exist, and eventually decided on the latter, since the formed seemed improbable. The way many people tried to *force* me back into religion didn't help matters, and made me quite cynical.

The Christian god is interesting to me as a fictional story or as mythology, but not as a literal being. If the Christian god was a literal being I could not bring myself to believe in a god like that. If I ever could flip the belief switch and believe again, it would definitely be gods from a pagan religion. I do still plan to read into christianity from a "the mythology is interesting" perspective, but I want to do this for all religions.

[Sefiru]

I'm just wondering if there's a reason you chose the more-specific term pandeism rather than the broader pantheism? Myself, I'd have thought the latter a closer fit to the OP's perspective, but I might be missing something, or just projecting (being a pantheist myself).

Sunflower

OP stated that they believe that the universal spirit is not conscious, which by my understanding is more deism than theism.

[ehbowen]

I guess where my disbelief in a god figure started was prayer. I used to pray all the time when I was younger, both in a Christian capacity and a pagan one. One of the things I began to notice was people praying for trivial things and then giving god all the praise when things went their way. I prayed and prayed for something very important to me. To this day that prayer was never answered. People pray for starving children and domestic violence victims. And those prayers go unanswered. Yet, little Timmy won the football game and that's because of god? At the time it seemed to me like god had his priorities mixed up. So I kept thinking on it and thinking on it and decided that if god picks and chooses which prayers get answered, he's a douchebag. That led me to believe that prayer did not work. And if prayer did not work, that meant god had no actual influence over our lives. Then it spiraled into me just not believing in god. Now, don't take this as a "Oh, they are just mad at god because their prayer didn't get answered." In the beginning, that anger sparked the thought process, but it was not the reason for my departure from a belief in god.

Or it means that something larger and more important is going on "behind the scenes." You have to remember that, in the Christian world view, this world and this universe is at war...and my God is the enemy of the forces currently in control. You want a Red Cross package delivered? Okay, maybe with some negotiation and a prisoner swap we can set that up. You want to have enemy headquarters nuked and/or a Normandy invasion? That's going to take some time to set up, and it's certain to be opposed.

I'll drive the regulars here crazy if I go into the details again, but you can search my posts. I've had a prayer request on my mind for some time now: I've been asking God for a girl. But I said, from the beginning, that I didn't want just any girl, I wanted the right girl; the one that he knew was the very best for me. That was February, 1984. I'm still a virgin. And, in all that time, I've had exactly one encounter which might qualify as a "date".

You think my God's ignoring me? I certainly don't think so. It took fifteen years before I realized it, but He's fixing me up with his own daughter. Yeah, in my mind, that qualifies as earth-shaking. And I can see why it might take a little extra time.

While I can't say that I've studied quantum physics with any rigor, I did ace Navy Nuclear Power School. And I'm at least vaguely familiar with the concept of the wavefunction, which describes a system. As events progress, unobserved, the wavefunction grows more and more complex. In layman's terms, the number of possibilities grows ever larger. But, when you observe the system, the wavefunction is said to "collapse"...you see the actual state of the system (in the world in which you're living, if you're partial to the many-worlds interpretation).

Prayer can be thought of as you telling God what to include in the wavefunction. Sight can be seen as akin to "taking the observation." If you insist on seeing everything take shape step by step, you lose the chance that you will be surprised. More than that (remember the war!), you lose the chance that God might be able to do something to surprise the enemy. But, if you let the wavefunction build and build...if you have faith...God can make it ever, ever more exponentially complex. And then, when the day finally comes that you do see it...providing you don't give up!...then both you and everyone around you can be amazed.

[PanSoka]

Or it means that something larger and more important is going on "behind the scenes." You have to remember that, in the Christian world view, this world and this universe is at war...and my God is the enemy of the forces currently in control. You want a Red Cross package delivered? Okay, maybe with some negotiation and a prisoner swap we can set that up. You want to have enemy headquarters nuked and/or a Normandy invasion? That's going to take some time to set up, and it's certain to be opposed.

I'll drive the regulars here crazy if I go into the details again, but you can search my posts. I've had a prayer request on my mind for some time now: I've been asking God for a girl. But I said, from the beginning, that I didn't want just any girl, I wanted the right girl; the one that he knew was the very best for me. That was February, 1984. I'm still a virgin. And, in all that time, I've had exactly one encounter which might qualify as a "date".

You think my God's ignoring me? I certainly don't think so. It took fifteen years before I realized it, but He's fixing me up with his own daughter. Yeah, in my mind, that qualifies as earth-shaking. And I can see why it might take a little extra time.

While I can't say that I've studied quantum physics with any rigor, I did ace Navy Nuclear Power School. And I'm at least vaguely familiar with the concept of the wavefunction, which describes a system. As events progress, unobserved, the wavefunction grows more and more complex. In layman's terms, the number of possibilities grows ever larger. But, when you observe the system, the wavefunction is said to "collapse"...you see the actual state of the system (in the world in which you're living, if you're partial to the many-worlds interpretation).

Prayer can be thought of as you telling God what to include in the wavefunction. Sight can be seen as akin to "taking the observation." If you insist on seeing everything take shape step by step, you lose the chance that you will be surprised. More than that (remember the war!), you lose the chance that God might be able to do something to surprise the enemy. But, if you let the wavefunction build and build...if you have faith...God can make it ever, ever more exponentially complex. And then, when the day finally comes that you do see it...providing you don't give up!...then both you and everyone around you can be amazed.

I don’t believe in “behind the scenes”. I don’t believe in the whole “god has a plan”. If a god does exist and for some reason he/she has a plan for that particular prayer of mine to go unanswered, then I wouldn’t want to worship/believe in that god anyway. Maybe that makes me selfish, but it’s something I can’t compromise on. So that was the catalyst for my move away from belief in a god.

[ehbowen]

I don’t believe in “behind the scenes”. I don’t believe in the whole “god has a plan”. If a god does exist and for some reason he/she has a plan for that particular prayer of mine to go unanswered, then I wouldn’t want to worship/believe in that god anyway. Maybe that makes me selfish, but it’s something I can’t compromise on. So that was the catalyst for my move away from belief in a god.

Sounds to me like you're saying, "My way or the highway!" Which is your privilege, but don't be surprised if you can't find many people (and fewer deities) who want to work with you under those terms.

I've been rather free with my opinions and "suggestions"...but I always end my prayers with, "...or else, do something which will be even better for me and for everyone else concerned." I think that the world my God is working on is something that you will WANT to be a part of. Just remember...while everyone enjoys visiting Disneyland, the rewards from its operation rightfully flow to the man/men who had the vision and the persistence and took the risks to bring it from a dream into reality.

As far as there being no "behind the scenes"...well, of course you're free to believe that as well. But is that a model which is consistent with known facts? Only if you so define "known facts" to exclude any report of the miraculous or supernatural. Even in scientific thinking, the latest string theories posit eleven or so dimensions, in which our universe has a broad existence in three but in the others just takes up a very tiny delta.

By comparison, picture a two-dimensional universe lying in a drawer with others, like a stack of sheets of paper. It has existence in length and width, and that's all that it's putative two-dimensional occupants perceive...but it also has an imperceptible delta of thickness. I think that our three-dimensional universe also has those imperceptible deltas in more directions than we can imagine.

Any real-world reason to believe this? Sure; there's one dimension that we all experience as an imperceptible delta: The time dimension. We are aware that there is a past and we expect that there will be a future, but the only portion of it which we directly experience is that imperceptible delta we call "now".

As long as it's just you and me slinging opinions, that's fine. But when someone from outside this cozy little corner of reality shows up, I think it behooves us to pay attention. One such made an appearance about two thousand years ago; from the welcome we gave Him I wouldn't be surprised if he and his family decided to walk away and never return. But twenty-four years ago...eyeblink in terms of eternity...I met his baby sister. In person. She's cute. Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me...but I am expecting you to believe that I do believe it. And that I act accordingly.

[PanSoka]

Sounds to me like you're saying, "My way or the highway!" Which is your privilege, but don't be surprised if you can't find many people (and fewer deities) who want to work with you under those terms.

I've been rather free with my opinions and "suggestions"...but I always end my prayers with, "...or else, do something which will be even better for me and for everyone else concerned." I think that the world my God is working on is something that you will WANT to be a part of. Just remember...while everyone enjoys visiting Disneyland, the rewards from its operation rightfully flow to the man/men who had the vision and the persistence and took the risks to bring it from a dream into reality.

As far as there being no "behind the scenes"...well, of course you're free to believe that as well. But is that a model which is consistent with known facts? Only if you so define "known facts" to exclude any report of the miraculous or supernatural. Even in scientific thinking, the latest string theories posit eleven or so dimensions, in which our universe has a broad existence in three but in the others just takes up a very tiny delta.

By comparison, picture a two-dimensional universe lying in a drawer with others, like a stack of sheets of paper. It has existence in length and width, and that's all that it's putative two-dimensional occupants perceive...but it also has an imperceptible delta of thickness. I think that our three-dimensional universe also has those imperceptible deltas in more directions than we can imagine.

Any real-world reason to believe this? Sure; there's one dimension that we all experience as an imperceptible delta: The time dimension. We are aware that there is a past and we expect that there will be a future, but the only portion of it which we directly experience is that imperceptible delta we call "now".

As long as it's just you and me slinging opinions, that's fine. But when someone from outside this cozy little corner of reality shows up, I think it behooves us to pay attention. One such made an appearance about two thousand years ago; from the welcome we gave Him I wouldn't be surprised if he and his family decided to walk away and never return. But twenty-four years ago...eyeblink in terms of eternity...I met his baby sister. In person. She's cute. Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me...but I am expecting you to believe that I do believe it. And that I act accordingly.

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. If that works for your personal reality and how you view and interact with the world, more power to you. Personally, "god with a plan" just doesn't make sense to me. Here is my experience with prayer. I didn't really ever pray for much. I mostly just figured stuff out on my own. The one thing I did pray for was the ability to have children. As much as I wanted children and as hard as I tried, my sister oopsed a baby with a dumb ass and got the one thing I wanted in life. I went through fertility treatments and spent thousands of dollars. Instead of my prayers being answered, I finally got pregnant, but it was a blighted ovum. I was forced to miscarry a baby that didn't exist. Then my relationship of 11 years fell apart and we divorced. Still, I prayed and prayed. Instead of anything good happening, I ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship that lasted a year and a half. It caused me to spiral into a depression and develop anxiety that I still fight today. Thankfully I am now with a wonderful man and we want to have kids but now all my fertility issues are coming back. So tell me how ANY of that was some sort of great plan of God's? And if you bring up adoption, this portion of the conversation is over. If I hear one more person say "just adopt", I'll scream. You DO NOT tell a woman fighting with fertility to "just adopt".

But yea, that is the catalyst that helped bring about my disbelief.

[Sefiru]

Sounds to me like you're saying, "My way or the highway!" Which is your privilege, but don't be surprised if you can't find many people (and fewer deities) who want to work with you under those terms.

I dunno, there are plenty of people, and deities, who respect someone who stands up for themselves and refuses to put up with bad treatment.

Frankly, I too would not want to associate with anyone, mortal or divine, who caused/allowed bad things to happen to me to further some undisclosed "plan" of theirs. Informed consent is a human right.

[Sefiru]

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. If that works for your personal reality and how you view and interact with the world, more power to you. Personally, "god with a plan" just doesn't make sense to me. Here is my experience with prayer. I didn't really ever pray for much. I mostly just figured stuff out on my own. The one thing I did pray for was the ability to have children. As much as I wanted children and as hard as I tried, my sister oopsed a baby with a dumb ass and got the one thing I wanted in life. I went through fertility treatments and spent thousands of dollars. Instead of my prayers being answered, I finally got pregnant, but it was a blighted ovum. I was forced to miscarry a baby that didn't exist. Then my relationship of 11 years fell apart and we divorced. Still, I prayed and prayed. Instead of anything good happening, I ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship that lasted a year and a half. It caused me to spiral into a depression and develop anxiety that I still fight today. Thankfully I am now with a wonderful man and we want to have kids but now all my fertility issues are coming back. So tell me how ANY of that was some sort of great plan of God's? And if you bring up adoption, this portion of the conversation is over. If I hear one more person say "just adopt", I'll scream. You DO NOT tell a woman fighting with fertility to "just adopt".

But yea, that is the catalyst that helped bring about my disbelief.

That is horrible. Hugs, if you want them.

[ehbowen]

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. If that works for your personal reality and how you view and interact with the world, more power to you. Personally, "god with a plan" just doesn't make sense to me. Here is my experience with prayer. I didn't really ever pray for much. I mostly just figured stuff out on my own. The one thing I did pray for was the ability to have children. As much as I wanted children and as hard as I tried, my sister oopsed a baby with a dumb ass and got the one thing I wanted in life. I went through fertility treatments and spent thousands of dollars. Instead of my prayers being answered, I finally got pregnant, but it was a blighted ovum. I was forced to miscarry a baby that didn't exist. Then my relationship of 11 years fell apart and we divorced. Still, I prayed and prayed. Instead of anything good happening, I ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship that lasted a year and a half. It caused me to spiral into a depression and develop anxiety that I still fight today. Thankfully I am now with a wonderful man and we want to have kids but now all my fertility issues are coming back. So tell me how ANY of that was some sort of great plan of God's? And if you bring up adoption, this portion of the conversation is over. If I hear one more person say "just adopt", I'll scream. You DO NOT tell a woman fighting with fertility to "just adopt".

But yea, that is the catalyst that helped bring about my disbelief.

I do believe that there are possible explanations. But which one specifically applies to your situation I do not know. Anyhow, in times like this theological discussions are superfluous. Please accept my condolences and sympathy for your loss in the miscarriage, and permit me to empathize with your ongoing struggle. As I said, I've waited thirty-four years to have the right girl physically present in my life...and twenty-four for a second date. So I can certainly understand how enduring years of deprivation with seemingly no end or hope in sight can be discouraging.

I will say this; the Bible is full of stories of couples with issues bearing children. But when those children did finally come, they were a special, miraculous blessing. May it so be in your case. All the best.

[SunflowerP]

OP stated that they believe that the universal spirit is not conscious, which by my understanding is more deism than theism.

Checking Wikipedia again, yeah, that'd be roughly true of the relationship between the unmodified terms 'deism' and 'theism', yes. The modifying prefix 'pan-', though, doesn't modify each word identically - pantheism doesn't require that the divine be or have ever been a distinct, conscious, volitional being.

Sunflower

[SunflowerP]

I don’t believe in “behind the scenes”. I don’t believe in the whole “god has a plan”. If a god does exist and for some reason he/she has a plan for that particular prayer of mine to go unanswered, then I wouldn’t want to worship/believe in that god anyway. Maybe that makes me selfish, but it’s something I can’t compromise on. So that was the catalyst for my move away from belief in a god.

PanSoka - I'm quoting you because this is the post I'm referring to, not because I'm addressing you directly, or because you're in any trouble. You're not; it's entirely fine for you to set a boundary.

Eric,

*** MOD HAT ON ***

This is where you should have stopped. While PanSoka didn't state explicitly, 'No, I'm not interested in hearing why you think I should reconsider Christianity,' their post that I quoted is a pretty clear indicator that that's the case. Your continued apologism is, if not quite over the 'proselytization' line, at any rate unwelcome apologism. It certainly should not have been necessary for PanSoka to recount the very personal details of their back history with prayer before you decided they had a 'good enough' reason to not want to be preached at. This is a warning, to make clear to you just how serious we are about not allowing even indirect proselytizing, but I'm not giving you a strike because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't wilfully ignoring the implicit 'no' but genuinely failed to recognize it as such. However, I expect you to take on board that this is what 'no' looks like; if in future you press on even when someone has indicated they're not interested, staff will consider it to be wilful, and moderate accordingly. If in any case you're not certain if someone is giving you a 'no' or not, don't contact a staff member to ask, but err on the side of caution and assume that it is a 'no', and back off. Please note that the proselytization rule is in the 'Don't be annoying' section of our rules, which means that if staff consider those rules to have been broken wilfully, the usual 'three strikes' sequence may not apply. Sunflower TC Forum Staff

(Edited to make clearer who I'm addressing with what)

[SunflowerP]

You have to remember that, in the Christian world view, this world and this universe is at war...

Since I'm not Christian, this isn't mine to address. But I'm curious whether our several other Christian members feel that you've accurately spoken for their worldviews.

Sunflower

[ehbowen]

Since I'm not Christian, this isn't mine to address. But I'm curious whether our several other Christian members feel that you've accurately spoken for their worldviews.

Sunflower

Your point is well taken; my statement was overly broad. May I amend it to, "My understanding of the Christian worldview?"

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