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Author Topic: Allegiance to the RCC  (Read 1396 times)

Caleb Oak

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Allegiance to the RCC
« on: February 22, 2020, 01:33:24 pm »
When I go to church, with my family, I still feel connected to the Catholic Church, and I get strange deja vus in a church.

-I get the urge to walk up to the altar and start my own mass when there is no priest around.
-During mass I have to restrain myself from saying all the blessings and incantations the priest is supposed to say alone.
-I always want to put on the robes they wear.
-I get angry and confused when the songs are not in Latin.  ;D
-When somebody criticizes the RCC I tend to defend it in a reflex.

Any theories why this is?, or where this comes from?

EclecticWheel

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 11:38:20 pm »
-I get the urge to walk up to the altar and start my own mass when there is no priest around.
-During mass I have to restrain myself from saying all the blessings and incantations the priest is supposed to say alone.
-I always want to put on the robes they wear.
-I get angry and confused when the songs are not in Latin.  ;D
-When somebody criticizes the RCC I tend to defend it in a reflex.

Any theories why this is?, or where this comes from?

Maybe it's as simple as having respect for your roots and maybe a bit of nostalgia.

In regard to wishing to celebrate a mass, I have felt tempted historically to perform rites on the altar in my Anglo-Catholic parish, or even to celebrate mass, but I am convinced this would be wrong to indulge!  The altar is set aside for a particular use by a particular religious community.

My religious commitments have fluctuated over the years with mood changes and detours as I studied alternatives, though for the most part, in practice, I have remained a devout sacramental Christian with a commitment to traditional liturgy and an inquiring, open minded, but ideally consistent theology.  (Theology for me is always a work in progress.)

I would not personally advise anyone who is not a Catholic priest, especially if they respect Catholicism, to use our altars for rituals.  It could cause deep distress and offense.

And Anglo-Catholics, Catholics, Orthodox, independent sacramentalists, maybe a few others I'm not recalling-- we expect a person to be ordained to say mass.

But what to do with those religious impulses you mention, and which I've experienced myself, when you are not ordained?

One possibility is to seek ordination.  If that is not possible or not your vocation, or incompatible with your beliefs, might you not instead create your own distinct rituals?

Not everyone is up to that.  But for myself, with some experimentation and tinkering over the years, I created my own rituals that in my judgment, and in the judgment of a devout Catholic friend of mine who is theologically trained, are compatible with Catholic tradition and grow out of it, although they're unusual and unique to myself, at least until I make them public.

Over the years I've experimented with unorthodox masses as well, but this didn't work for me long term.  For the most part, I've stuck with Roman or Anglo-Catholicism with some detours along the way.

I am convinced it is not my path to seek ordination or monastic life, though I pray much more than the average lay person or even priest.  In fact I study and attempt, at least, to cultivate methods of unceasing prayer.

The impulse to take on a priestly role need not involve the sacramental priesthood.  There is also the priesthood of the faithful in general, at least if we are talking about Catholicism, and you may have your own views about priesthood as fits your own practice.

As far as I'm concerned, drawing inspiration from the mass in creating ritual can be respectful, and in my case, even pious.

But I make it clear in the ritual itself that what I am doing is not the mass and not the same as what the priest does, and have over the years removed anything in the rite that could be mistakenly interpreted otherwise even in passing.

Perhaps you can, like I did, channel these desires into ritual, but with respect for Catholicism.  You can draw inspiration from that source while doing something that is indeed different from the mass, but still sacred on its own terms.

I have found, now that I have created my own outlet for these impulses, that I no longer wish to say the mass itself.  Perhaps it was never my desire to, for I never desired ordination.  I had to find a way proper to myself to engage these feelings.

Best wishes on finding a solution because I think I understand how you are feeling.
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Castus

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 02:23:21 am »
When I go to church, with my family, I still feel connected to the Catholic Church, and I get strange deja vus in a church.

-I get the urge to walk up to the altar and start my own mass when there is no priest around.
-During mass I have to restrain myself from saying all the blessings and incantations the priest is supposed to say alone.
-I always want to put on the robes they wear.
-I get angry and confused when the songs are not in Latin.  ;D
-When somebody criticizes the RCC I tend to defend it in a reflex.

Any theories why this is?, or where this comes from?

I have no clue why that is. I mean, I came up in a Roman Catholic background and parted with the Church amicably; as a result I still hold a great deal of affection for the old gal — which is one of the reasons I, too, reflexively defend the Catholic Church against all-too-frequent calumnies and aspersions. Like EclecticWheel says it’s entirely possible your feelings stem from nothing more serious than respect and/or nostalgia.

As it so happens I’m presently (finally) wrapping up seminary studies after having begun them 3-4 years ago, and God-willing will be ordained as a priest within the next few months. To that end I recently completed reading and reviewing Charles W. Leadbeater’s Science of the Sacraments, which lays out the fundamentals of sacramental theology within a Liberal Catholic understanding. With that knowledge in hand I can say this:

If you feel some sort of calling to the clerical life, that’s something you ought to seriously contemplate. The ability to celebrate the Holy Mass is an immeasurable blessing and any inkling of a vocation to that should be examined at the least. Having said that, remember that since you aren’t ordained at the moment, saying your own Mass (as it were) would have the same practical effect as a child cooking dinner on a pretend stove — which is to say nothing whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the Roman Catholic faithful are explicitly and specifically forbidden to say or do actions specific to the priest during the celebration of Mass; even if you aren’t Catholic it would be appropriate/respectful to adhere to that regulation.

Don’t get too caught up on the robes; vestments are crazy expensive.
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Caleb Oak

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 04:18:58 am »
Maybe it's as simple as having respect for your roots and maybe a bit of nostalgia.

In regard to wishing to celebrate a mass, I have felt tempted historically to perform rites on the altar in my Anglo-Catholic parish, or even to celebrate mass, but I am convinced this would be wrong to indulge!  The altar is set aside for a particular use by a particular religious community.

My religious commitments have fluctuated over the years with mood changes and detours as I studied alternatives, though for the most part, in practice, I have remained a devout sacramental Christian with a commitment to traditional liturgy and an inquiring, open minded, but ideally consistent theology.  (Theology for me is always a work in progress.)

I would not personally advise anyone who is not a Catholic priest, especially if they respect Catholicism, to use our altars for rituals.  It could cause deep distress and offense.

And Anglo-Catholics, Catholics, Orthodox, independent sacramentalists, maybe a few others I'm not recalling-- we expect a person to be ordained to say mass.

But what to do with those religious impulses you mention, and which I've experienced myself, when you are not ordained?

One possibility is to seek ordination.  If that is not possible or not your vocation, or incompatible with your beliefs, might you not instead create your own distinct rituals?

Not everyone is up to that.  But for myself, with some experimentation and tinkering over the years, I created my own rituals that in my judgment, and in the judgment of a devout Catholic friend of mine who is theologically trained, are compatible with Catholic tradition and grow out of it, although they're unusual and unique to myself, at least until I make them public.

Over the years I've experimented with unorthodox masses as well, but this didn't work for me long term.  For the most part, I've stuck with Roman or Anglo-Catholicism with some detours along the way.

I am convinced it is not my path to seek ordination or monastic life, though I pray much more than the average lay person or even priest.  In fact I study and attempt, at least, to cultivate methods of unceasing prayer.

The impulse to take on a priestly role need not involve the sacramental priesthood.  There is also the priesthood of the faithful in general, at least if we are talking about Catholicism, and you may have your own views about priesthood as fits your own practice.

As far as I'm concerned, drawing inspiration from the mass in creating ritual can be respectful, and in my case, even pious.

But I make it clear in the ritual itself that what I am doing is not the mass and not the same as what the priest does, and have over the years removed anything in the rite that could be mistakenly interpreted otherwise even in passing.

Perhaps you can, like I did, channel these desires into ritual, but with respect for Catholicism.  You can draw inspiration from that source while doing something that is indeed different from the mass, but still sacred on its own terms.

I have found, now that I have created my own outlet for these impulses, that I no longer wish to say the mass itself.  Perhaps it was never my desire to, for I never desired ordination.  I had to find a way proper to myself to engage these feelings.

Best wishes on finding a solution because I think I understand how you are feeling.
I know I should not actually do it, I would never disrespect people like that.
(I only do that stuff in my dreams)

I just have a lot of Deja Vus, like I actually did it before, which is rather strange.

Anyhow, thanks.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 12:09:02 pm by Darkhawk »

Micheál

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2020, 05:14:33 pm »
When I go to church, with my family, I still feel connected to the Catholic Church, and I get strange deja vus in a church.

-I get the urge to walk up to the altar and start my own mass when there is no priest around.
-During mass I have to restrain myself from saying all the blessings and incantations the priest is supposed to say alone.
-I always want to put on the robes they wear.
-I get angry and confused when the songs are not in Latin.  ;D
-When somebody criticizes the RCC I tend to defend it in a reflex.

Any theories why this is?, or where this comes from?
We call it something similar in Northern Ireland, as being a "Catholic Atheist"  :D
Or someone that's not religious, but sympathises, or identifies with the family, or "political" aspects.

The ritual elements of Catholicism are something I always thought were serene as a child. The syncretic folk traditions are something I cherish as well. I recently visited Brighid's well in Kildare the day after Imbolg(Sunday), and came across a mass on site that beckoned us in. Were invited back to Solas Bhríde to see the perpetual flame by the Brigidine sister that relit it herself. I loved that, and the peace I always felt in Catholic ritual.....but I detest the Church itself, and all of its.....well without offending belongers of the actual faith, I don't think I need to mention the history and politics that are very well known and controversial. I'm glad my cousin gave up on her path of becoming a nun!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 05:16:51 pm by Micheál »

Caleb Oak

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2020, 05:28:25 pm »
We call it something similar in Northern Ireland, as being a "Catholic Atheist"  :D
Or someone that's not religious, but sympathises, or identifies with the family, or "political" aspects.

The ritual elements of Catholicism are something I always thought were serene as a child. The syncretic folk traditions are something I cherish as well. I recently visited Brighid's well in Kildare the day after Imbolg(Sunday), and came across a mass on site that beckoned us in. Were invited back to Solas Bhríde to see the perpetual flame by the Brigidine sister that relit it herself. I loved that, and the peace I always felt in Catholic ritual.....but I detest the Church itself, and all of its.....well without offending belongers of the actual faith, I don't think I need to mention the history and politics that are very well known and controversial. I'm glad my cousin gave up on her path of becoming a nun!
Not an atheist, but ok, thanks, i guess.

PS: You can not blame the whole church for the wrongdoings of a few, just saying.  ;)
Not to start a debate on the matter, its just a tip.

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2020, 09:49:46 pm »
PS: You can not blame the whole church for the wrongdoings of a few, just saying.  ;)
Not to start a debate on the matter

Too late.

Neither can you excuse longstanding, systemic abuses--whether sexual abuse and its coverup, or the oppression of other people's rights through political influence--as just the work of a few bad apples.

The people of the church by and large aren't the problem. The hierarchy is.
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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2020, 12:40:33 am »


I recently visited Brighid's well in Kildare the day after Imbolg(Sunday), and came across a mass on site that beckoned us in. Were invited back to Solas Bhríde to see the perpetual flame by the Brigidine sister that relit it herself. I loved that, and the peace I always felt in Catholic ritual.....but I detest the Church itself, and all of its.....well without offending belongers of the actual faith, I don't think I need to mention the history and politics that are very well known and controversial. I'm glad my cousin gave up on her path of becoming a nun!

Off topic, but... That sounds really wonderful! My dream is to visit Kildare at Imbolc. Coming from the US, though, it's pricey. And timing is always bad with work.

I've had a lot of email contact with the amazing sisters at Solas Bhride, and I know many people who have visited there. They are very welcoming to all, including pagans. For them, it's all about Brighid, however She might choose to reveal Herself.

If the whole Church was like them, history would be very different.

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Micheál

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2020, 02:57:50 am »

Off topic, but... That sounds really wonderful! My dream is to visit Kildare at Imbolc. Coming from the US, though, it's pricey. And timing is always bad with work.

I've had a lot of email contact with the amazing sisters at Solas Bhride, and I know many people who have visited there. They are very welcoming to all, including pagans. For them, it's all about Brighid, however She might choose to reveal Herself.

If the whole Church was like them, history would be very different.

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They're wonderful! Mary particularly was a sweetheart. I've been to the wells, but have always held off on visiting the centre because of the old myths of males getting close to the flame, but I was invited, and no ill fortune fell upon me, in fact I felt even better  ;D

And yes, even at mass someone from the church with a guitar sung a song about her that tied her to the earth, and didn't mention her as a saint, or mention Christ once. Solas Bhríde also hold Bealtaine, Samhain, Summer Solstice, Spring, and Autumn equinox festivals(later are still popular despite the lack of "Celtic" origin) in the centre as well. I imagine this was the approach taken when Ireland adopted Christianity .
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 03:00:45 am by Micheál »

Caleb Oak

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2020, 04:48:06 am »
Too late.

Neither can you excuse longstanding, systemic abuses--whether sexual abuse and its coverup, or the oppression of other people's rights through political influence--as just the work of a few bad apples.

The people of the church by and large aren't the problem. The hierarchy is.
Very well, its treason then.....  8)

True, I am just saying that the corrupt leaders and abusive figures do not represent the ideals of the RCC, and therefore they should not represent the church as a whole, in the same way that radicals do not represent Islam, or Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other religion,
Like the way those girls who beat me up as a teen do not represent Wicca.


Off topic, but... That sounds really wonderful! My dream is to visit Kildare at Imbolc. Coming from the US, though, it's pricey. And timing is always bad with work.

I've had a lot of email contact with the amazing sisters at Solas Bhride, and I know many people who have visited there. They are very welcoming to all, including pagans. For them, it's all about Brighid, however She might choose to reveal Herself.

If the whole Church was like them, history would be very different.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I think the church should be more focused on social justice, and the ascension from this earthly plane into a higher one, and they need to update some traditions, which are just archaic, whereas most of the actual dogmas are fine, and no, there are no dogmas about sexuality, only traditions, and those can be changed like the one about capital punishment.  :)

Which was changed recently btw.

arete

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2020, 11:12:37 am »
When I go to church, with my family, I still feel connected to the Catholic Church, and I get strange deja vus in a church.

-I get the urge to walk up to the altar and start my own mass when there is no priest around.
-During mass I have to restrain myself from saying all the blessings and incantations the priest is supposed to say alone.
-I always want to put on the robes they wear.
-I get angry and confused when the songs are not in Latin.  ;D
-When somebody criticizes the RCC I tend to defend it in a reflex.

Any theories why this is?, or where this comes from?
It sounds like you can do a fine job as a priest. :) Maybe you know what is a proper priest.
I pray that religious animosity will end.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2020, 11:20:05 am »
It sounds like you can do a fine job as a priest. :) Maybe you know what is a proper priest.
Me, I doubt it, I have no formal education.  ;D

But thanks.  8)

arete

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2020, 11:21:39 am »
Me, I doubt it, I have no formal education.  ;D

But thanks.  8)
Maybe you need little training. What if you were natural talent as a priest? :)
I pray that religious animosity will end.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2020, 11:26:54 am »
Maybe you need little training. What if you were natural talent as a priest? :)
Well in theory yes, but you need a college degree for that.  8)

And those do not grow on trees.
I think  ;D

Micheál

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Re: Allegiance to the RCC
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2020, 12:31:45 pm »
Very well, its treason then.....  8)

True, I am just saying that the corrupt leaders and abusive figures do not represent the ideals of the RCC, and therefore they should not represent the church as a whole, in the same way that radicals do not represent Islam, or Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other religion,
Like the way those girls who beat me up as a teen do not represent Wicca.
That's very true, except it's a bit difficult when those very leaders are supposed to be carried to a higher standard, and represent the ideals. So when we had Magdalene Laundries that imprisoned tens of thousands of people, mass graves of innocent babies, countless cases of sexual abuse under the Christian Brothers, and the very same Priests that enforced their victims to have abortions into recent years, then enforced the same opposition against the Repeal the 8th Amendment (abortion)it's more than just a few corrupt leaders, it's an epidemic that was sustained by the head of the RCC itself.

So I agree traditions need to be changed, which there has been much talk about, and minor steps within the last year or so, so long may it continue.   

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