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Author Topic: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis  (Read 4111 times)

Jack

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All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 12:16:59 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;109659
I can't really word for this. On the one hand, it's patronizing as shit. On the other hand, it's about the best Pope Vader can do without tearing his entire religious organization down to the ground.

Is he Pope Vader because he's the successor to Palpatine or is there another implication I'm missing? XD

I am still enough of a Catholic theology nerd to enjoy the heart attacks this must be giving Church conservatives.
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 08:17:18 am »
Quote from: Jack;109662
I am still enough of a Catholic theology nerd to enjoy the heart attacks this must be giving Church conservatives.

Not to mention how it is annoying Protestant fundamentalists.
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 08:26:04 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;109614
See, I don't see this as erasing - he's not saying that we're REALLY worshiping Jesus.  He's saying Jesus will take us/ love us anyway.  I'm not saying that can't be offensive, but he's not erasing /our choices/ - he's saying that HIS GOD doesn't care about that over our actions.


Pretty much this.  Call it a baby step for the church-- because it is-- but it comes a helluva lot closer to the idea of God being a loving God than just about any (pedantic) legalistic Protestant sect out there.  
And that's saying a lot, coming from a former rabid evangelical with anti-Catholic prejudices.
Even better, imho; it specifically espouses the notion that what you do in this life echoes throughout eternity.  [Italicized bits cribbed from Gladiator.]  That's a far cry from the faith-only Proddies whose doctrine allows them to act like incorrigible Westboro douchenozzles.  
Yeah, I'm still "working through" some of this.
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MadZealot

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 08:28:12 am »
Quote from: RandallS;109682
Not to mention how it is annoying Protestant fundamentalists.

 
That right there is worth the price of the popcorn.
(Speaking, again, as a former Proddy.)
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

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Gilbride

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 08:36:25 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109605
I have mixed feelings about this. On the other hand, saying everyone is redeemed through Jesus, no exceptions, feels to me like another way of saying that I don't REALLY know who I'm worshipping or what my own spirituality is.


My feeling is that if I am entitled to disagree with the Pope about how the spiritual universe works, he is equally entitled to disagree with me. He can't possibly agree that polytheism is an equally valid worldview without erasing his own, so that's not a realistic thing to expect of him.

So what next? Well, we either have to find a way to live in the same world or else try to wipe each other out. He seems to prefer the former, and that's a good thing.

So he can say "I think you're redeemed by Jesus as long as you do good, whether you believe in Jesus or not" and I can reply "Thanks, Francis! I think Brighid is cool with you whether you believe in Her or not, so we're on the same page as far as that goes. You won't burn me at the stake, I won't throw you to any lions, and we'll both go on happily thinking the other guy is not quite as right as we are. Have a nice day!"

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All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 11:45:51 am »
Quote from: Gilbride;109687
He can't possibly agree that polytheism is an equally valid worldview without erasing his own, so that's not a realistic thing to expect of him.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it probably depends on what you mean by "equally valid".

Either way, the double standard inherent in the situation is a large part of what I find problematic.
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Vale

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2013, 03:53:14 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109645


The part that bothers me is the "everyone is redeemed through Jesus" part.  I neither need nor want to be redeemed through Jesus.  I'm happy with Brighid, and I don't need Jesus to come along and save me from myself or from Her.

*shrug*

I know.  If we look at this through the Pope's lens, it's easy to understand that this is a big deal for him.

But if the Pope was to look through MY lens, maybe he'd see why this feels patronizing to me.  If he cared about that...


This is pretty much my feelings on the matter too.  Jesus simply has no place in my theology except perhaps as a sacred king archetype.

victoreia

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 01:40:02 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109645
Yes, I see that.  And I agree that it's progress and that it's positive overall, as is his encouragement for Catholics to work with people of other faiths who are doing good (whatever that means).

{tiny snip for space}

The part that bothers me is the "everyone is redeemed through Jesus" part.  I neither need nor want to be redeemed through Jesus.  I'm happy with Brighid, and I don't need Jesus to come along and save me from myself or from Her.

*shrug*

I know.  If we look at this through the Pope's lens, it's easy to understand that this is a big deal for him.

But if the Pope was to look through MY lens, maybe he'd see why this feels patronizing to me.  If he cared about that...

 
Pretty much this. As a former raised-Catholic, I understand that this is a huge step for the church.

But I have no desire to be "saved" by Jesus. The inherent assumption many Christians have that a non-Christian will still appreciate being saved is highly offensive to me. (I mean, if you absolutely must pray for my health, fine. But don't wake me up from much-needed sleep while I'm in the ICU, just so I'll know you did it.)

(Uh, apologies. I seem to have inadvertently channeled the "There, I Said It!" Thread....)
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Ludola

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 04:49:19 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;110050
But I have no desire to be "saved" by Jesus. The inherent assumption many Christians have that a non-Christian will still appreciate being saved is highly offensive to me. (I mean, if you absolutely must pray for my health, fine. But don't wake me up from much-needed sleep while I'm in the ICU, just so I'll know you did it.)

This is my feeling also. The Pope say I can be "redeemed" (I bet this is a word "devised" by Christians exclusively for Christians by the way) but... I couldn't care lass about this claim.

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I take not of his blood
I don't need salvation
Or his forgiveness
I don't want his kingdom
My kingdom is here
"
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 12:29:27 pm »
Quote from: Altair;109608

My understanding of Christianity has always been that one must accept Jesus--make that conscious choice--in order to be saved. Indeed, the aggressive proselytization imbedded in that religion was largely predicated on the fact that people could only be saved if they choose Jesus Christ, so Christians have to spread the word so that non-Christians are aware of the choice. Or so I thought.


Thought so. Here's a Vatican spokesman saying as much as he walks back the pope's statement:

"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

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Sophia C

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 02:11:27 pm »
Quote from: Altair;110254
Thought so. Here's a Vatican spokesman saying as much as he walks back the pope's statement:

"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

I'm sure you're all as deeply concerned as I am.

 
Sounds to me like the pope dropped a heresy and the church had to clean it up...
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 02:57:13 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;110267
Sounds to me like the pope dropped a heresy and the church had to clean it up...

 
It's not like universalism is unheard of in Christianity (including Catholicism), it's just not mainstreamly popular.  (It's at least consistent, dammit.)

I have no problem believing this Pope is a universalist, but I also suspect that he's mostly focused on treating Sola Fide as a heresy.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

RandallS

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 03:26:06 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;110272
I have no problem believing this Pope is a universalist, but I also suspect that he's mostly focused on treating Sola Fide as a heresy.

While a very good case can be made for universalism, like you, I suspect the main points Francis was trying to make that good works are required (faith alone is not enough -- as you point out that claim is actually considered heresy) and that Catholics should not be afraid to join with non-Catholics to do those good works.
Randall
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dionysiandame

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 07:42:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;110272
It's not like universalism is unheard of in Christianity (including Catholicism), it's just not mainstreamly popular.  (It's at least consistent, dammit.)

I have no problem believing this Pope is a universalist, but I also suspect that he's mostly focused on treating Sola Fide as a heresy.



I think my biggest concern is that this will lead to more well-meaning but, ultimately, detrimental missionary work. It's one thing to do good works because it's the right thing to do, it's another thing entirely to do it with the purpose of converting people to your religion in exchange for said help.
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 08:01:06 am »
Quote from: dionysiandame;110297
It's one thing to do good works because it's the right thing to do, it's another thing entirely to do it with the purpose of converting people to your religion in exchange for said help.

I don't see a long of that any more -- which probably does not mean much except that it is less common (or less blatantly obvious) in my area than it used to be.
Randall
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