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Author Topic: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis  (Read 4114 times)

RandallS

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All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« on: May 23, 2013, 02:03:37 pm »
Quote
Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

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dionysiandame

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 02:18:14 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;109597
Read the entire article

 
I'm really liking this Pope. I think he is a breath of fresh air after Pope Palpatine and could even help build the church's numbers. Of course I disagree with him on may social issues, but his willingness to reach across the schisms in Christianity to attempt to build community is impressive. I especially like that he is willing to speak on social issues outside of hot-button sexual issues; like calling to task the horrible woring conditions found in many third world countries.

Can you tell I'm like, a total fangirl for this guy? I have his special edition copy of Life Magazine and look forward to seeing how he handles the financial and sexual scandals that have rocked the Vatican.
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All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 02:42:47 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;109597
Read the entire article

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I agree that the Pope reaching out to non-believes is a good thing for many reasons.  On the other hand, saying everyone is redeemed through Jesus, no exceptions, feels to me like another way of saying that I don't REALLY know who I'm worshipping or what my own spirituality is.  Kinda like a "father knows best" thing, where I'm the silly child who doesn't understand the grown-up stuff, but that's ok because Daddy is here to take care of me.

Today is turning into a bad migraine and depression day, so I might not be articulating this very well...
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 02:57:35 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109605
I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I agree that the Pope reaching out to non-believes is a good thing for many reasons.  On the other hand, saying everyone is redeemed through Jesus, no exceptions, feels to me like another way of saying that I don't REALLY know who I'm worshipping or what my own spirituality is.  Kinda like a "father knows best" thing, where I'm the silly child who doesn't understand the grown-up stuff, but that's ok because Daddy is here to take care of me.

Today is turning into a bad migraine and depression day, so I might not be articulating this very well...

 
You're articulating it fine.

I'm having trouble finding the good in this. How is it reaching out to atheists and people of different faiths to erase their existence?

Saying it's okay, I'll get redeemed through Jesus even if I believe in those pagan gods is basically saying I'm going through a phase and my religious choices don't really matter. It's paternalistic and belittling and erases my agency.


Also I'd like to see Jesus try to claim me from the Morrigan. I'm just saying.
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Altair

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 03:06:17 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109605
I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I agree that the Pope reaching out to non-believes is a good thing for many reasons.  On the other hand, saying everyone is redeemed through Jesus, no exceptions, feels to me like another way of saying that I don't REALLY know who I'm worshipping or what my own spirituality is.  Kinda like a "father knows best" thing, where I'm the silly child who doesn't understand the grown-up stuff, but that's ok because Daddy is here to take care of me.



I can appreciate the response you're having; I have a bit of it myself. (Sort of like when Mormons induct strangers and dead people into their religion without any inkling on the inductees' part.)

But then, they don't have a framework to see things in any other way. For hardcore Christians, there is one Truth--theirs. Even when they try to be expansive and embracing, it will still be through that lens (Jesus). Most of us pagans recognize that there are many Truths, so it's far easier for us to be inclusive without having to shoehorn somebody into a religious framework in which they don't belong, never have, and to which they have no affinity.

It does seem like heresy from the topmost echelon of that church, though. My understanding of Christianity has always been that one must accept Jesus--make that conscious choice--in order to be saved. Indeed, the aggressive proselytization imbedded in that religion was largely predicated on the fact that people could only be saved if they choose Jesus Christ, so Christians have to spread the word so that non-Christians are aware of the choice. Or so I thought.
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dionysiandame

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 03:07:59 pm »
Quote from: Morag;109607



Also I'd like to see Jesus try to claim me from the Morrigan. I'm just saying.


I guess I didn't really think about it this way, primarily because I know he's never going to think outside of his paradigm. Let's be real, we (pagans) probably don't even exist to him and considering his past interfaith work has mainly been with the other two big monotheisms; I'm definitely not expecting him to offer me the Eucharist any time soon.

For what, and who, he is however; I do see him as a positive step in a good direction. He'll never think people don't "need Jesus" and he'll always think we're a bunch of confused lambs who will hopefully one day rejoin the flock of the Mother Church globally. We are all probably hellbound, or getting cushy seats in purgatory at best, but I don't really feel this is aimed at "us."

I don't know if any of what I said makes sense.
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Melamphoros

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 03:08:40 pm »
Quote from: Morag;109607

I'm having trouble finding the good in this. How is it reaching out to atheists and people of different faiths to erase their existence?

Saying it's okay, I'll get redeemed through Jesus even if I believe in those pagan gods is basically saying I'm going through a phase and my religious choices don't really matter. It's paternalistic and belittling and erases my agency.

 
Exactly my thoughts.  It's a nice gesture, but Francis hasn't thought it through all the way.


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Sophia C

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 03:09:17 pm »
Quote from: Morag;109607
You're articulating it fine.

I'm having trouble finding the good in this. How is it reaching out to atheists and people of different faiths to erase their existence?


Universalism is a HUGE step forward for a church that, officially, has officially believed all non-Christians go to hell, for a very long time. Church Father Origen taught universalism, and they declared him a heretic for it. Seriously - Francis could rock the boat with this to a ridiculous degree. Here is the other side of the coin.

I don't expect an institution as slow-moving as the Catholic church to jump from 'you're all going to hell' to a more positive, pluralistic doctrine without having to go through some intermediate stages that not everyone will like.
 
Definitions of 'redemption by Jesus' may also vary, from the literal to the metaphorical.
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dionysiandame

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 03:13:16 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;109611

 
Definitions of 'redemption by Jesus' may also vary, from the literal to the metaphorical.



I was going to mention that but I was having a hard time finding the exact wording in this handy dandy online version of the Catechism.

I wonder if they realized their fanfic was going to be as open to interpretation as the original work. :eek:
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Melamphoros

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 03:14:37 pm »
Quote from: Altair;109608
(Sort of like when Mormons induct strangers and dead people into their religion without any inkling on the inductees' part.)

 
I knew I detected a familiar disgusting whiff to this.....


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HeartShadow

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 03:26:55 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;109597
Read the entire article

 
See, I don't see this as erasing - he's not saying that we're REALLY worshiping Jesus.  He's saying Jesus will take us/ love us anyway.  I'm not saying that can't be offensive, but he's not erasing /our choices/ - he's saying that HIS GOD doesn't care about that over our actions.  It might be a subtle difference, but it's an important one.

And also, HOLYSHIT but that's a big deal!

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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 03:40:17 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;109611
I don't expect an institution as slow-moving as the Catholic church to jump from 'you're all going to hell' to a more positive, pluralistic doctrine without having to go through some intermediate stages that not everyone will like.
 
Definitions of 'redemption by Jesus' may also vary, from the literal to the metaphorical.

 
Honestly, it genuinely makes me happy to see a major Christian figure putting forward a model of Jesus's actions that doesn't assume that they failed.  (The whole thing was always presented to me as freeing people to be able to succeed or fail on their own moral merits rather than being intrinsically cursed in some fashion, so "Thanks to Jesus, you can succeed or fail on your own moral merits!" is finally bloody consistent.)
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 04:10:52 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;109614
See, I don't see this as erasing - he's not saying that we're REALLY worshiping Jesus.  He's saying Jesus will take us/ love us anyway.  I'm not saying that can't be offensive, but he's not erasing /our choices/ - he's saying that HIS GOD doesn't care about that over our actions.  It might be a subtle difference, but it's an important one.

This is exactly how I see it. He is saying that his God cares about eveyone not just those who choose to worship him. That's a big thing for a religion that believes its God is either the only one (or the only one that matters). He is also saying that Catholics who refuse to work with those of other faiths on charity projects and other "doing good" because those other people aren't Catholic or even Christian are wrong to do so. This last, IMHO, is a message people of all religions need to take to heart. I've seen Pagans pass over perfectly good chances to help others because the main people involved were of another religion -- which has always struck me as counterproductive.
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Aster Breo

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All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 06:41:42 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;109625
He is saying that his God cares about eveyone not just those who choose to worship him. That's a big thing for a religion that believes its God is either the only one (or the only one that matters).

Yes, I see that.  And I agree that it's progress and that it's positive overall, as is his encouragement for Catholics to work with people of other faiths who are doing good (whatever that means).

I also agree that this kind of progress takes time and requires many interim steps.  (I understand Christianity pretty well -- I grew up in it, my parents are lay leaders in their church, and my brother and sister-in-law are both pastors.  I get how slowly things change in such large and doctrine-bound institutions.)

The part that bothers me is the "everyone is redeemed through Jesus" part.  I neither need nor want to be redeemed through Jesus.  I'm happy with Brighid, and I don't need Jesus to come along and save me from myself or from Her.

*shrug*

I know.  If we look at this through the Pope's lens, it's easy to understand that this is a big deal for him.

But if the Pope was to look through MY lens, maybe he'd see why this feels patronizing to me.  If he cared about that...
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Re: All Who Do Good are Redeemed -- Pope Francis
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 11:48:56 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;109645
Yes, I see that.  And I agree that it's progress and that it's positive overall, as is his encouragement for Catholics to work with people of other faiths who are doing good (whatever that means).

I also agree that this kind of progress takes time and requires many interim steps.  (I understand Christianity pretty well -- I grew up in it, my parents are lay leaders in their church, and my brother and sister-in-law are both pastors.  I get how slowly things change in such large and doctrine-bound institutions.)

The part that bothers me is the "everyone is redeemed through Jesus" part.  I neither need nor want to be redeemed through Jesus.  I'm happy with Brighid, and I don't need Jesus to come along and save me from myself or from Her.

*shrug*

I know.  If we look at this through the Pope's lens, it's easy to understand that this is a big deal for him.

But if the Pope was to look through MY lens, maybe he'd see why this feels patronizing to me.  If he cared about that...

 
I can't really word for this. On the one hand, it's patronizing as shit. On the other hand, it's about the best Pope Vader can do without tearing his entire religious organization down to the ground.
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