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Author Topic: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology  (Read 1285 times)

zamotcr

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ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« on: October 24, 2013, 08:21:07 am »
Hello,

I was wondering, for those of you that have selected and hearth culture, do you stick to the hearth culture cosmology or keep the ADF cosmology?

I'm currently researching the Anglo-Saxon culture, but I don't feel comfortable with their cosmology. For me ADF cosmology is more understandable and logical, not to say more universal.

That could be a problem? Use ADF cosmology, not just for the rituals, but for my whole life, to my own path, even when I choose a hearth culture?

Aiwelin

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Re: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 01:45:36 pm »
Quote from: zamotcr;126648
Hello,

I was wondering, for those of you that have selected and hearth culture, do you stick to the hearth culture cosmology or keep the ADF cosmology?

I'm currently researching the Anglo-Saxon culture, but I don't feel comfortable with their cosmology. For me ADF cosmology is more understandable and logical, not to say more universal.

That could be a problem? Use ADF cosmology, not just for the rituals, but for my whole life, to my own path, even when I choose a hearth culture?

 
I don't think it would be a problem at all!  If you find an Anglo-Saxon group, they're probably more likely to use AS-specific imagery and cosmology in their rituals; but your own rituals, ADF or not, are totally yours to determine.

I tend to use the cosmology of whatever culture I'm working in at the moment - Celtic for Celtic, AS for AS, and ADF cosmology when doing ritual for my many ancestors all over the Indo-European spectrum.  In my day to day life, and when working with the local land spirits or recent ancestors, I tend to have more of a prairie cosmology then the forest-and-ocean inspired European ideas.  Land, sea, and sky doesn't mean a lot when there's no sea (or even a large lake!) for miles and miles.  So I tend to think more vertically - the sky (which is a huge, blue and uninterrupted dome), the flat land that stretches out in all directions, and for the underworld I always picture the dark dripping cavern of the Ogallala aquifer that extends under most of the prairie out here.
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zamotcr

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Re: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 02:29:55 pm »
Quote from: Aiwelin;126672
I don't think it would be a problem at all!  If you find an Anglo-Saxon group, they're probably more likely to use AS-specific imagery and cosmology in their rituals; but your own rituals, ADF or not, are totally yours to determine.


I agree. Of course they will use their rituals with their vision. I completely respect that.

Quote from: Aiwelin;126672

In my day to day life, and when working with the local land spirits or recent ancestors, I tend to have more of a prairie cosmology then the forest-and-ocean inspired European ideas.  Land, sea, and sky doesn't mean a lot when there's no sea (or even a large lake!) for miles and miles.  So I tend to think more vertically - the sky (which is a huge, blue and uninterrupted dome), the flat land that stretches out in all directions, and for the underworld I always picture the dark dripping cavern of the Ogallala aquifer that extends under most of the prairie out here.


Excellent!

My problem to stick just to the Hearth cosmology is when you believe in more than one pantheon. F'ex, you believe in Zeus and in Odin, both cosmologies are very different, although they share similarities. For each god you can use their rituals, but outside rituals, for our own vision of the universe, how we reconcile that every god is real?
In this context I think neither cosmologies are the correct one or both are true.

I think the Three Realms can work here, you can say: Odin is a god and he is Upper-world. Zeus is another god and he is there too, also other goddesses and gods are there. Greeks called it Olympus, Norse called it Asgard. Anyhow, each culture sprang from the PIE cosmology and added their own vision and images.

Also, I think some shamans believed in some kind of Three Realms too, whatever name or images they use, the idea is the same, or almost the same, I think.

I'm trying to see how I see the world, not talking in a ritualistic view, but my own view, to explain where do we go after we die, where are the gods, what are the Other-world, etc.

I think the vision of the Celts of the Water, Land and Skies fits my own view of the cosmos :)

I know that for ADF I should select a Hearth Culture, for the program I think it's better if I just follow what the Hearth culture specified. After that, I can define my own view. Or perhaps I should learn more Celtic culture instead of AS. The problem is that I don't know where to start to learn Celtic HC.

Aiwelin

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Re: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 04:16:59 pm »
Quote from: zamotcr;126675
I agree. Of course they will use their rituals with their vision. I completely respect that.



Excellent!

My problem to stick just to the Hearth cosmology is when you believe in more than one pantheon. F'ex, you believe in Zeus and in Odin, both cosmologies are very different, although they share similarities. For each god you can use their rituals, but outside rituals, for our own vision of the universe, how we reconcile that every god is real?
In this context I think neither cosmologies are the correct one or both are true.

I think the Three Realms can work here, you can say: Odin is a god and he is Upper-world. Zeus is another god and he is there too, also other goddesses and gods are there. Greeks called it Olympus, Norse called it Asgard. Anyhow, each culture sprang from the PIE cosmology and added their own vision and images.

Also, I think some shamans believed in some kind of Three Realms too, whatever name or images they use, the idea is the same, or almost the same, I think.

I'm trying to see how I see the world, not talking in a ritualistic view, but my own view, to explain where do we go after we die, where are the gods, what are the Other-world, etc.

I think the vision of the Celts of the Water, Land and Skies fits my own view of the cosmos :)

I know that for ADF I should select a Hearth Culture, for the program I think it's better if I just follow what the Hearth culture specified. After that, I can define my own view. Or perhaps I should learn more Celtic culture instead of AS. The problem is that I don't know where to start to learn Celtic HC.

 
Hmm, if we're talking about how we view the world in general, I'd have to say my idea of it is very fluid.  After all, there are many cultures who have vastly different experiences or stories about the Otherworld is structured.  I'm personally not sure if each area is sort of its own, and the cosmologies of each culture exist independently; or if it is a super-human structure too complicated for understanding, and the pictures we hear about are just various people's attempt to understand.  In light of that, I'm pretty content to use whatever, because I don't believe any of them are exactly right or wrong.

As for learning about Celtic hearth culture, it certainly is a bit trickier than the Anglo-Saxon, if only because there's relatively late Norse culture that can be adopted over with some considerations.  There's a couple books I've picked up that I wouldn't recommend, and I have yet to read a really fantastic overview.  On that note, here's the ADF reading list for Celtic hearth culture; I've specifically heard really good things about The Druids but haven't had any time to check it out.
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zamotcr

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Re: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 04:32:35 pm »
Quote from: Aiwelin;126681
Hmm, if we're talking about how we view the world in general, I'd have to say my idea of it is very fluid.  After all, there are many cultures who have vastly different experiences or stories about the Otherworld is structured.  I'm personally not sure if each area is sort of its own, and the cosmologies of each culture exist independently; or if it is a super-human structure too complicated for understanding, and the pictures we hear about are just various people's attempt to understand.  In light of that, I'm pretty content to use whatever, because I don't believe any of them are exactly right or wrong

 
I was thinking a lot in what you said and yep, you're right.

The three realms are just a "classification", the reality is much more complex than that. There can be infinite planes or realms of existence. Just to classify and understand it better, some see them as three. But reality is much more complex and very fluid.

Perhaps all realms are real, who knows? Perhaps some of them are the same of different cultures, others don't. At the end, who knows? :)

It's better to see it fluid and incommensurable, so we can accept almost everything as real, or possibly real.

Aiwelin

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Re: ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2013, 01:04:35 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;126798
It's better to see it fluid and incommensurable, so we can accept almost everything as real, or possibly real.

 
It definitely works best for me!  I'm glad I could help :)
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Sophia C

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ADF Cosmology and Hearth cosmology
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2013, 03:13:25 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;126798
I was thinking a lot in what you said and yep, you're right.

The three realms are just a "classification", the reality is much more complex than that. There can be infinite planes or realms of existence. Just to classify and understand it better, some see them as three. But reality is much more complex and very fluid.

Perhaps all realms are real, who knows? Perhaps some of them are the same of different cultures, others don't. At the end, who knows? :)

It's better to see it fluid and incommensurable, so we can accept almost everything as real, or possibly real.

I like this approach. I struggle with ADF's cosmology, because it's a sort of compromise of that of many of IE cultures (it seems to me, anyway - I know it's based on older, reconstructed IE mythology - but in practice, it ends up feeling like a compromise). So it sort-of works for Norse members, Celtic members, I assume for Slavic members (?) - but only sort of. I struggle with the placement of the Three Realms in space, because Gaelic mythology talks about land, sea and sky, with the gods being of those places, rather than from the sky or from any kind of underworld. There are exceptions - I can sort of see Donn as an underworld god, if I squint, even though he's more associated with the sea - and there is a reference in one myth about the gods originally coming from the sky, I think. But in practice, no sky gods or underworld gods - they're associated with the land (the sidhe - translation, hills or mounds), and sometimes the sea (e.g. in the case of Manannan mac Lir - but he still has an Otherworldly castle on an island). Basically, I think the Gaelic cosmology is very hard to superimpose on top of ADF's. I know that people try - associating land/sea/sky with the middle realm's divisions, for example, or associating the sea with the underworld (which nearly works) - but most of the attempts don't quite work for me.

So, basically, what I do is use the ADF cosmology for my ADF High Day rituals, and otherwise ignore it entirely. This is probably not what I'm meant to do! But it works - compromise, and share a cosmology with everyone else, on days when I'm focusing on unity in my Druid order, and otherwise get on with my Celtic-type work.

Does that make any sense? Hope so! I do like your idea that the Realms are classifications, to explain something that varies a lot between cultures,
 
Also: hi, and welcome to ADF ! :)
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