Lady of the Stars, Take Two

[Sage]

I have had a teeny tiny feeling of this too. Like a smoky thread I can feel whispering but can't grasp. But I would have never brought it up for two reasons:

1. I believed the general consensus would be, "OMG NO!", or
2. If Aphrodite was accepted, she would be blended into some kind of mini-Brigid.

 
For what it's worth, I don't think that would happen this time around. Or at least I really would not do that. Because I can grok Aphrodite too, and even if Brighid and Aphrodite might have connections within the LotS constellation... totally different goddesses, different personalities, different energies. Plus I think Aphrodite would pop my backside if I tried to make her into Brighid. And Brighid wouldn't want me making mini-mes of Her. O_O

[AlisonLeighLilly]

I would really like to compose a reply to you, Ali, as you've put together a significant response to me. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable engaging with you; our past interaction has perpetually left me feeling talked at instead of talked to. I never get a sense of actual communication and being heard. I'm sure that isn't your intention, but it is inevitably how I end up feeling. I am pointing this out only because I don't want you to think I am willfully ignoring you; I did, in fact, read your response in its entirety.

I am really, really sorry you feel/have felt this way, Juni. I don't know what I can do to fix that. I know I can be long-winded, but I've always tried really hard to listen to you, and everyone else in the forum, and to respond in a way that makes you feel heard and respected.

If you want to PM me or email me to talk, please please do. (And that goes for anybody else who wants to.) But I also understand if you just want me to leave you alone.

I'm also really sorry that so many people felt shut out by the original LotS conversations. I know I wasn't the only one who was Brighid-focused in that group, but I had been worried that for some reason it was me specifically who caused it to fall apart and I didn't know why or what I could have done differently.

Juni, you said:

The Lady of the Stars SIG did not stay open; I myself requested membership and was denied. You ought to remember that, as you were the one to do so? You directed me to the LotS Group instead, which has virtually nothing of relevance. You state in one thread. Which reads to me as a a public vetting group, and given the scarcity of conversation within, I doubt I am alone.

 
That was during the time when the old forum was shutting down and the new forum was being set up, and there was a lot of discussion going on about how exactly the different new features of TC could be used. The idea of having a "public face" was meant to be a compromise between the privacy that people were asking for (which is one reason this very thread got moved here) and the desire of many of us (including me) to be more open about it. It was not my personal decision to keep the SIG private, or to reject any specific people from the LotS SIG; I wasn't even the one who set it up with Randall to begin with or made it completely private rather than just invisible to non-Cauldronites (I didn't even know that was an option here on TC until a couple months ago). I actively tried to get people to have conversations in the public LotS Group, and if you go over and check it out you'll see that every single one of the posts there was started by me, trying to get other people to contribute. In fact, one of the very first threads I started was one asking new people what they wanted the group to be.

In fact, you responded to that thread where you expressed your feeling of "not quite fitting in" as being one of the reasons you didn't join the SIG on the old forum, and I responded with pretty much the explanation I just gave saying I hoped the new forum would provide a better way of balancing public and private conversation. The quote you used from me was from later on in that same thread, and in the very same comment, right after the part you quoted, I said:

That said, the SIG has been very quiet over the last several months, since moving to the new forum. I think we're in a bit of a slow period. Maybe your presence in this group can help inject some fresh energy?

I want to let you know that I acknowledge that you feel like you're not being heard... but right now, so am I. I feel like my actions and comments from the past are being taken out of context, or that I'm being made a scapegoat for things that were actually group decisions.

Like I said, I really don't know what to do, and I don't know if anything can be done. Several of you have expressed problems with me in particular, but you also won't tell me what specifically I did -- you won't even give me general examples. I want you to know that I respect how you feel... but some of these feelings are mutual. I can respect your choice not to engage or that you might not have the spoons for it right now (I'm pretty low on spoons myself -- I'm shaking as I type this and close to tears). But I also hope that you can respect and understand why I feel like I'm being told to go away because certain people just don't like me and don't even respect me enough to talk with me about it.

How can I do a better job at participating in these conversation? What can I do to make you feel like you're being heard? Please let me know what your needs are and how I can do a better job of respecting them. I really, really am trying. I need to know that you respect me enough to acknowledge that. I know we're all doing our best.

Blessings,
Ali

[AlisonLeighLilly]

How is moving these grievances to a different thread where they can be ignored again going to help?

 
Morag, the only reason I suggested moving the conversation is because I'm trying to respect TC rules about not hijacking threads. If everybody else is okay with keeping the conversation here, I am too. I just want everyone to be heard -- people who are new to this whole conversation and people who want to talk about what happened before. I thought maybe doing that in two different threads would make everybody feel more comfortable, but that was the only reason I asked. I don't know why suggesting a separate thread should be taken as trying to ignore or surpress anybody's views, when lots of people have suggested doing that before without it being a problem.

I'm hurt and confused about why I'm getting chewed out for suggesting that we start a new thread to focus more directly on this particular topic so that you and Juni and others can feel heard and we can explore it more in-depth... and then having both you and Juni turn around and say you don't want to talk about it anymore.

I'm very sorry that there are so many hurt feelings about what happened. I wish I felt like you respected me enough to acknowledge that my feelings have been very hurt, too.

Blessings,
Ali

[stephyjh]

I am really, really sorry you feel/have felt this way, Juni. I don't know what I can do to fix that. I know I can be long-winded, but I've always tried really hard to listen to you, and everyone else in the forum, and to respond in a way that makes you feel heard and respected.

If you want to PM me or email me to talk, please please do. (And that goes for anybody else who wants to.) But I also understand if you just want me to leave you alone.

I'm also really sorry that so many people felt shut out by the original LotS conversations. I know I wasn't the only one who was Brighid-focused in that group, but I had been worried that for some reason it was me specifically who caused it to fall apart and I didn't know why or what I could have done differently.

Juni, you said:


 
That was during the time when the old forum was shutting down and the new forum was being set up, and there was a lot of discussion going on about how exactly the different new features of TC could be used. The idea of having a "public face" was meant to be a compromise between the privacy that people were asking for (which is one reason this very thread got moved here) and the desire of many of us (including me) to be more open about it. It was not my personal decision to keep the SIG private, or to reject any specific people from the LotS SIG; I wasn't even the one who set it up with Randall to begin with or made it completely private rather than just invisible to non-Cauldronites (I didn't even know that was an option here on TC until a couple months ago). I actively tried to get people to have conversations in the public LotS Group, and if you go over and check it out you'll see that every single one of the posts there was started by me, trying to get other people to contribute. In fact, one of the very first threads I started was one asking new people what they wanted the group to be.

In fact, you responded to that thread where you expressed your feeling of "not quite fitting in" as being one of the reasons you didn't join the SIG on the old forum, and I responded with pretty much the explanation I just gave saying I hoped the new forum would provide a better way of balancing public and private conversation. The quote you used from me was from later on in that same thread, and in the very same comment, right after the part you quoted, I said:



I want to let you know that I acknowledge that you feel like you're not being heard... but right now, so am I. I feel like my actions and comments from the past are being taken out of context, or that I'm being made a scapegoat for things that were actually group decisions.

Like I said, I really don't know what to do, and I don't know if anything can be done. Several of you have expressed problems with me in particular, but you also won't tell me what specifically I did -- you won't even give me general examples. I want you to know that I respect how you feel... but some of these feelings are mutual. I can respect your choice not to engage or that you might not have the spoons for it right now (I'm pretty low on spoons myself -- I'm shaking as I type this and close to tears). But I also hope that you can respect and understand why I feel like I'm being told to go away because certain people just don't like me and don't even respect me enough to talk with me about it.

How can I do a better job at participating in these conversation? What can I do to make you feel like you're being heard? Please let me know what your needs are and how I can do a better job of respecting them. I really, really am trying. I need to know that you respect me enough to acknowledge that. I know we're all doing our best.

Blessings,
Ali

I don't see how anybody's obligated to respond to you, but that's just me.

[Darkhawk]

Morag, the only reason I suggested moving the conversation is because I'm trying to respect TC rules about not hijacking threads.

 
Again with the moderator notes:  thread drift has never, to the best of my knowledge, been against TC rules.

[Sage]

I was one of those people for whom the Lady of the Stars was Brighid. I don't remember requiring everyone else to agree on that, but I was pretty grounded in my own feelings on my relationship with her and so I probably talked about her as Brighid with a certain amount of confidence and specificity when talking about my own experiences and lightbulb moments.

I think I was one of these folks, too. Although in retrospect I vaguely remember having a Star/Dark/Spiral Goddess that I occasionally got whispers from prior to November 2010, and Brighid of the Forge as Lady of the Stars connected with my Star Goddess, and I just jumped to Brighid with both arms out because wow, spiritual connection for the first time in a long while.

What I remember is feeling shot down for not being "open enough" to other goddesses -- as if, just because others felt a connection between the LotS and, say, Nut, that therefore I had to as well or else I was somehow being judgemental.  I think we even had an extended conversation on the forum at the time about how phrases like "just Brighid" felt hurtful to people who didn't see Brighid as "just" an aspect of some other goddess, but that didn't mean we thought others' experiences of the LotS was in any way invalid.

Like I told Morag and Juni, I'm really sorry you felt shot down and not heard. It sounds like there was a glorious cluster of poor communication and no one should feel invalidated or unheard in these situations. I too remember the conversation about "just" Brighid as being a problematic turn of phrase (though I don't think I've thought about it in two years).

(I totally forget my password for the old forum, so I can't login and find the link -- maybe someone else can?)

Not exactly what you're looking for, but I can offer a link to the original Brighid of the Forge thread which should give you access to the rest of the (open) last forum. I may be poking around there later to see what old stuff I can dig up, if I can remember my password too.

I don't remember personally ignoring any posts, since what everyone was saying was very interesting and inspiring for me, even the people who were talking about other traditions I wasn't personally familiar with... But since I started lurking here on TC instead of directly participating for a bit, I've noticed that sometimes (especially in threads that are generating lots of responses really quickly) people who don't respond to every single post sometimes get accused of "ignoring" the posts they don't respond to. I'm not sure that that's really fair, though I totally understand why people might feel that way.

I haven't seen that, but as a frequent poster and not a lurker, totally may have missed something. Problematic flaws with things we care deeply about sometimes get glossed over.

But the energy had scattered. No one has posted in that SIG in ages, even though many of the people having this conversation now are a part of it.

I wish I knew what to do with this group, that group, or any of this. I feel/felt the scattered energy too, and that was so disappointing. I wouldn't know the first bit about salvaging the SIG, even if that's what I felt like I needed or wanted to do.

To be honest, at this point I want to do what I can to pick up the pieces and go on from here. I'd be so super wary of any group stuff beyond just open discussions of UPG and the personal practice any of us might have.

I know that I've continued to work with Brighid as LotS (and LotS as "CosmicBrighid") on my own, but I didn't pack up to go play at home because I didn't want to share things with other non-Brighid folks. I did it because the LotS SIG was silent except for the chirping of crickets and it seemed like the moment of SPG had passed... but I was still exploring and growing and didn't want to put my relationship with the LotS on hold just because others had seemed to lose interest or find a different focus.

I've been thinking -- maybe some of us mistook SPG for... something bigger or more convoluted. At the time I absolutely wanted rituals and some shared community. (Having a hard time putting this into words, bear with me.) I felt like because we were having this shared inspiration and because I finally felt a deity's presence, that I had some responsibility or obligation (or the group at large did) to Do Something, form a path, or at the very least find some way to have a cohesive group identity. That what was going on was Special (which is was) and I had to be part of something Special in turn.

I have no idea what we "should" have done or what the Lady "wanted" us to do (and at a certain extent, I don't think those two questions matter. What's done is done.) We came forward and shared something for a brief period, and even though I know that ended with some folks feeling really hurt and unheard -- it sounds like it still sparked a lot of powerful spiritual momentum in a lot of us. Our plans didn't take the shape that we wanted, but something Special happened anyway.

Maybe there isn't a way to fix that. I'm totally willing to continue to be a lurker if it means that others will be more comfortable sharing their experiences -- but obviously, if everyone feels that way, no one will end up saying anything.

--Ali

 
Thank you for taking the time and energy to comment, Ali. I know this is painful for a lot of folks.

[HeartShadow]

I've been thinking -- maybe some of us mistook SPG for... something bigger or more convoluted. At the time I absolutely wanted rituals and some shared community. (Having a hard time putting this into words, bear with me.) I felt like because we were having this shared inspiration and because I finally felt a deity's presence, that I had some responsibility or obligation (or the group at large did) to Do Something, form a path, or at the very least find some way to have a cohesive group identity. That what was going on was Special (which is was) and I had to be part of something Special in turn.

I have no idea what we "should" have done or what the Lady "wanted" us to do (and at a certain extent, I don't think those two questions matter. What's done is done.) We came forward and shared something for a brief period, and even though I know that ended with some folks feeling really hurt and unheard -- it sounds like it still sparked a lot of powerful spiritual momentum in a lot of us. Our plans didn't take the shape that we wanted, but something Special happened anyway.

 
I think, right there, we have the crux of the matter - it went from discussion to something ELSE, and that something ELSE was very exclusionary.  Whether intended or not, and I don't think it was meant to be - but it WAS.  Anyone that didn't fit that ELSE suddenly had no place in the group, no discussion, nothing.

Like we were all talking about favorite desserts and suddenly half the group charged off to start up a bakery - the rest of us are just sitting there going WTF?  How can we all be having the same discussion NOW?

[AlisonLeighLilly]

Again with the moderator notes:  thread drift has never, to the best of my knowledge, been against TC rules.

 
I'm sorry. I looked back at the Forum Rules and it's not actually listed anywhere. I've just seen people suggest starting new threads to focus on specific topics -- and people mention trying to avoid thread drift -- so many times, I guess I thought of it as a normal thing to do, sort of an unwritten rule of basic forum etiquette.

I do have a question, though. It seems like you don't have a problem with Morag airing old grievances in a semi-public forum about things that happened in a private space, or with Juni directly quoting me out of context without providing a link.... But when I merely ask for examples of my own posts so that I can explain myself, help clarify any miscommunication, or apologize if I was in the wrong..... I'm told that this is a violation of TC Rules. To me, this feels very much like I'm being prevented from defending myself against accusations that are being made about how I've acted in the past, and that other people's current feelings and memories are more important than what might have actually happened. It feels very unfair to me that people can publicly trash me, but I'm not allowed to refer back to events as they actually happened.

So if you could let me know how I can proceed to help resolve this situation without violating any TC rules, that would be really helpful for me. And if you could give me some assurance that you will enforce TC rules equally for everybody and not allow others to break or bend them while jumping on me every time I make even the smallest misstep, that would help me feel a lot better about being heard and valued on this forum. Thank you.

--Ali

[Darkhawk]

I do have a question, though. It seems like you don't have a problem with Morag airing old grievances in a semi-public forum about things that happened in a private space, or with Juni directly quoting me out of context without providing a link....

If you feel that anyone has done something in violation of board rules, please report it.  In my quick review of the thread, I see Juni quoting something posted in a group which is free for any Cauldron member to join (and thus at roughly equivalent privacy level to this group, also accessible to any Cauldron member) and explicitly declared to be "public face" in the material which she quoted; the text is appropriately attributed, but, yes, there is not a link included to the relevant groups page, which would have been ideal.  I also see Morag speaking of Morag's experiences and only directly addressing you when you attempted to press for further details.

But when I merely ask for examples of my own posts so that I can explain myself, help clarify any miscommunication, or apologize if I was in the wrong..... I'm told that this is a violation of TC Rules.

It is, as I said, inappropriate to repost other people's text in more public space.  If someone wants to do you the immense personal favor of finding that information for you and conveying it to you privately, that is perfectly acceptable.  Should you find someone who has simultaneously the desire to serve you in this fashion, the knowledge of what to look for, and the access to the relevant posts, and this indulgence provides you with something that you wish to post, you are free to do so.

It feels very unfair to me that people can publicly trash me, but I'm not allowed to refer back to events as they actually happened.

If you wish to go back and find your own posts and refer to them, there is nothing stopping you from quoting your own words.  Your power to continue to rehash past wounds is entirely unfettered.  You may not, however, quote material from other people which was posted in locations with a higher security level than this one.

So if you could let me know how I can proceed to help resolve this situation without violating any TC rules, that would be really helpful for me. And if you could give me some assurance that you will enforce TC rules equally for everybody and not allow others to break or bend them while jumping on me every time I make even the smallest misstep, that would help me feel a lot better about being heard and valued on this forum. Thank you.

If you feel that my moderation and enforcement of the rules has been inappropriate, please raise your concerns in a report to staff.

[AlisonLeighLilly]

It feels very unfair to me that people can publicly trash me, but I'm not allowed to refer back to events as they actually happened.

 
I'm going to hang this here to let people know that, at the time that a lot of these conversations in the private SIG were going on, I was keeping a journal and reblogging a lot of the posts that I'd written. These are public and always have been, so I think I'm allowed to quote from them without violating any TC rules.

All of these posts are over on my blog under the Lady of the Stars tag. They don't include other people's posts, or my responses to other people's posts, since I felt that it would be a violation of privacy to include those in a public blog. So they're not a complete picture, obviously. But they do include some examples of the kinds of things I was writing and sharing at the time.

Specifically, there was what I wrote in response to a series of "what next" questions, including this part:

What do you want out of this group?

I... don't know. So - in the interest of complete honesty - sometimes I feel like my connection with the Lady/Brighid is very tenuous, on the edge of being "just in my head" and I feel like even though I'm all right with the theoretical/theologizing side, I struggle a lot with the actual belief side of things. But when this group first came together and we were planning ritual and sharing experiences and just having lots of conversation, I felt like that whole community process helped me a great deal to really cultivate a real relationship with Her. Some of you have such profound insights to share, and being able to work with others who are also building relationship with Her is immensely inspiring and helpful to me. So I want that from the group. I'm not sure if it's the ritual, or the conversation, or the meditative work - I feel like I got a lot out of each of those and I definitely want more of them - whatever it was in particular, this group helped me to really feel that She was in my life in a powerful way. Wherever we end up going, it's that sense of Her presence in our work that I really want. (emphasis added)

This was what I wrote in the private SIG, in a space where we had all agreed to try to set aside our self-censorship and be open and honest with each other. It doesn't sound to me like I was being dogmatic, and I don't know why it came across that way to others.

I wanted to share this here, because I do feel like I'm being attacked and accused of things that didn't happen. Several people have made it abundantly clear that my explanations and clarifications -- and even my apologies -- aren't welcome, and that they do not think there is any point in trying to engage with me. If that's how they feel, then I can respect that and I don't expect them to respond.... but I still feel like it's fair that others have a chance to see another side of the story.

I am not trying to deny or surpress anyone's emotions or tell them they're wrong for feeling the way they do. Just because I remember things differently doesn't mean I think their emotions are invalid. But I do want to be clear: I know that I am a decent person, that I work very hard to be respectful and supportive of others, and that I really enjoy hearing about others' ideas and experiences and have always encouraged people to share (while also respecting when they've said they needed space or privacy). That doesn't mean I'm perfect. But it does mean that I expect to be given the benefit of the doubt, and to have people engage with me respectfully and in good faith. I feel like I'm not getting that from people here (with the exception of Sage).

I refuse to take all the blame or all the responsibility for the emotions of other people, or accept their portrayal of me as some sort of dogmatic jerk. I'm not.

I don't think it will do much good to continue this conversation in public, since it seems like when I don't respond I'm accused of "ignoring" others, and when I do respond I just open myself up to being mocked or censored. I know that some people might twist this into an example of me trying to silence them.... it's not, but I can't stop them from feeling that way.

For anyone who wants to continue this particular conversation or who feels up to talking with me about specific examples of what I did that was so awful, please email me at ( meadowsweet.myrrh [at] gmail.com ).

For everybody who feels like this was a bizarre and sad tangent from the discussion of LotS... I'm really sorry for the part I played in that. I hope that things will get back to normal quickly, and I have every trust that She will help to make that happen.

Blessings,
Ali

[stephyjh]

Several people have made it abundantly clear that my explanations and clarifications -- and even my apologies -- aren't welcome, and that they do not think there is any point in trying to engage with me.


(snippage)


I refuse to take all the blame or all the responsibility for the emotions of other people, or accept their portrayal of me as some sort of dogmatic jerk. I'm not.

...Just picking out relevant bits here.  If you genuinely think you're not responsible, then how real is your apology? And if it's so clearly not real, why shouldn't people see through it?

[RandallS]

[mod=HOST HAT ON]
This thread has been closed while I investigate some serious allegations that material has been leaked from a private SIG in violation of the rules of that SIG in this thread.
[/mod]

[RandallS]

[mod=HOST HAT ON]
This thread has been closed while I investigate some serious allegations that material has been leaked from a private SIG in violation of the rules of that SIG in this thread.
[/mod]

[mod=HOST HAT ON]After a lot of work (comparing contents of messages here with the contents of messages in the private SIG), I have determined that while the letter of the rules was never violated (nothing from posts in the private area was posted here), the spirit of our privacy rules was marched on with jackboots.

The spirit of our privacy rules is simple: what goes on in a private area STAYS in the private area. While no private area posts were leaked by complaining about the moderation of a private area in a public thread, the moderation (the way the private area was run) is something that went on it a private area and should not be discussed in a public thread. Doing so could be considered an attack on a staff member as it left a staff member with no way to defend herself from the accusations without violating the rules of the forum.

Unfortunately, this situation has never come up before. Usually, people doing things like this attack me and I don't really care (blunt but true) so we've never had to have a rule against it. However, I will say that while the letter of the rules may not have been violated, I am not very happy with the behavior of the members who decided to air a private forum's dirty laundry in public like this. They may not have violated the letter of the rules, but they caused a good amount of trouble (and hours of work for me). I suggest they watch the rules (both letter and spirit) very carefully in the future because I will remember this behavior if there are any future rules issues of any type involving them.

I have not decided what rules will be changed, if any. It may simply be better to prevent this from happening in the future by not having any private SIGs. I will be discussing options with the senior staff.

Finally, as Co-Host of The Cauldron, I would like to publicly apologize to Alison for the position she was placed in here in this thread: accused, but unable to defend herself. While the private SIG in question obviously was not run to everyone's satisfaction, this public thread was not the place to air complaints about the way it was run as the complaints had to be nothing but vague accusations that could not be detailed nor defended against.

This thread will remain closed.
[/mod]