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Author Topic: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?  (Read 1181 times)

spoOk

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the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« on: August 17, 2012, 03:59:49 pm »
ive been wondering about this lately.
does sins,sinner...etc apply if you aren't Christian?
do any other religious Systems deal in the sin concept?
sins....discuss?
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

Valentine

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 04:46:30 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;69542
ive been wondering about this lately.
does sins,sinner...etc apply if you aren't Christian?
do any other religious Systems deal in the sin concept?
sins....discuss?

 
Of course they do.  Look at any book of mythlogy--you'll find plenty of Greek and Norse stories, for instance, about people sinning against the system of hospitality or guest-law and the consequences.  The Egyptian Negative Confessions are all piled up with ideas about sins.  If we're defining "sin" as "doing something morally wrong whether or not it is also a legal crime," roughly, every single culture and religion on this planet has a concept of sin.

We all do it differently?  For instance, the Jewish concept of sin, in Hebrew and historically, has a connotation "falling short" or missing a mark--that you made a mistake or didn't get something right, rather than that you did an actively evil thing.  And we all have different ideas about what is sinful--violating a taboo, or eating something improper, or when it is okay to kill someone, or what is the appropriate way to treat your children, or whether or not vengeance is virtuous--but I know of no religiocultural system that doesn't in some way have a concept of sin.  Even, say, the civic religion of the United States of America--by which I mean our cultural veneration of the state, not anything to do with explicit Gods--has its own sins, like "disparaging the Troops" or "not agreeing that our Constitution is the best thing in government, ever."

Christians neither invented the idea of sin nor have a monopoly on it.
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spoOk

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 05:57:47 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;69552
Of course they do.  Look at any book of mythlogy--you'll find plenty of Greek and Norse stories, for instance, about people sinning against the system of hospitality or guest-law and the consequences.  The Egyptian Negative Confessions are all piled up with ideas about sins.  If we're defining "sin" as "doing something morally wrong whether or not it is also a legal crime," roughly, every single culture and religion on this planet has a concept of sin.

We all do it differently?  For instance, the Jewish concept of sin, in Hebrew and historically, has a connotation "falling short" or missing a mark--that you made a mistake or didn't get something right, rather than that you did an actively evil thing.  And we all have different ideas about what is sinful--violating a taboo, or eating something improper, or when it is okay to kill someone, or what is the appropriate way to treat your children, or whether or not vengeance is virtuous--but I know of no religiocultural system that doesn't in some way have a concept of sin.  Even, say, the civic religion of the United States of America--by which I mean our cultural veneration of the state, not anything to do with explicit Gods--has its own sins, like "disparaging the Troops" or "not agreeing that our Constitution is the best thing in government, ever."

Christians neither invented the idea of sin nor have a monopoly on it.

 
in that sense yes I guess so,but not that they are called sins exactly.
like the concept of the devil.
if I don't believe in Satan. in the Christian sense....or their concept of hell....the things Christians threaten with those not Christian,don't apply right?
doesn't this follow with sins?
not that I'm completely amoral.
but there's taboo,sin,karma etc.
they aren't exsplicitly identical concepts right?
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

Valentine

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 06:21:12 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;69561
in that sense yes I guess so,but not that they are called sins exactly.
like the concept of the devil.
if I don't believe in Satan. in the Christian sense....or their concept of hell....the things Christians threaten with those not Christian,don't apply right?
doesn't this follow with sins?
not that I'm completely amoral.
but there's taboo,sin,karma etc.
they aren't exsplicitly identical concepts right?

 
You don't need to have any kind of devil to have a concept of sin.  You can believe, or not believe, in any of the various Christian versions of Satan or Hell, or whether or not those things apply to you.  I can't give you any kind of definitive ruling on the afterlife or the mechanics of divine justice--there's what you believe, and what I believe, and what other people believe.

Do you mean, is a sin a sin if not everyone agrees it's a sin?  That just because one person believes something is a sin doesn't mean it's a sin for you to do it?  Are you contextualizing "sin" exclusively as something you might get punished for in some kind of afterlife, and trying to figure out applicable consequences?  I'm having trouble sussing out exactly what you're asking here.

Remember, too, that "sin" is an English word we're using to translate all kinds of concepts--like the Christian ones originally written in Koine Greek and Aramaic, many adapted from Jewish concepts in Hebrew and Aramaic, and so on.  All translation is interpretation, and that's true of "karma" and "taboo" and everything else.  Concepts and cognates are not identical, and translation approximates and filters, always.
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"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
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sailor

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 06:32:42 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;69552
Of course they do.  Look at any book of mythlogy--you'll find plenty of Greek and Norse stories, for instance, about people sinning against the system of hospitality or guest-law and the consequences.  The Egyptian Negative Confessions are all piled up with ideas about sins.  If we're defining "sin" as "doing something morally wrong whether or not it is also a legal crime," roughly, every single culture and religion on this planet has a concept of sin.

We all do it differently?  For instance, the Jewish concept of sin, in Hebrew and historically, has a connotation "falling short" or missing a mark--that you made a mistake or didn't get something right, rather than that you did an actively evil thing.  And we all have different ideas about what is sinful--violating a taboo, or eating something improper, or when it is okay to kill someone, or what is the appropriate way to treat your children, or whether or not vengeance is virtuous--but I know of no religiocultural system that doesn't in some way have a concept of sin.  Even, say, the civic religion of the United States of America--by which I mean our cultural veneration of the state, not anything to do with explicit Gods--has its own sins, like "disparaging the Troops" or "not agreeing that our Constitution is the best thing in government, ever."

Christians neither invented the idea of sin nor have a monopoly on it.

 
Excellent description.

spoOk

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 09:30:56 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;69571
You don't need to have any kind of devil to have a concept of sin.  You can believe, or not believe, in any of the various Christian versions of Satan or Hell, or whether or not those things apply to you.  I can't give you any kind of definitive ruling on the afterlife or the mechanics of divine justice--there's what you believe, and what I believe, and what other people believe.

Do you mean, is a sin a sin if not everyone agrees it's a sin?  That just because one person believes something is a sin doesn't mean it's a sin for you to do it?  Are you contextualizing "sin" exclusively as something you might get punished for in some kind of afterlife, and trying to figure out applicable consequences?  I'm having trouble sussing out exactly what you're asking here.

Remember, too, that "sin" is an English word we're using to translate all kinds of concepts--like the Christian ones originally written in Koine Greek and Aramaic, many adapted from Jewish concepts in Hebrew and Aramaic, and so on.  All translation is interpretation, and that's true of "karma" and "taboo" and everything else.  Concepts and cognates are not identical, and translation approximates and filters, always.

 
I'm not sure what I meant originally was just thinking over some sin related things: I object to being called a sinner merely because I am not Christian and when I thought on it,non of my personal worship has concrete sin taboo nonos in it where you do this you get penalised by your deity....except there's a few lil 'this is how it's done' things and or deity insults,but you just get snubbed or not quite what you asked for,not...damned to hell. :/
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

RandallS

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 10:07:07 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;69542
ive been wondering about this lately.
does sins,sinner...etc apply if you aren't Christian?
do any other religious Systems deal in the sin concept?
sins....discuss?

Other religions have a sin concept, it just does not always have much SPECIFICALLY in common with Christian ideas. "To Sin" basically means doing something your deity does not approve of (generally to the point it requires you to do something to get back in your deity's favor). Lots of religions have this general idea of "sin".
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StudiodeKadent

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 04:24:37 am »
Quote from: spoOk;69542
ive been wondering about this lately.
does sins,sinner...etc apply if you aren't Christian?
do any other religious Systems deal in the sin concept?
sins....discuss?

 
The problem with discussing the issue is that for many people, "sin" and "sinner" are very loaded with Christian connotations.

If by "sin" we mean "action which is disapproved of by one's religion," then pretty much all religions have a concept of sin. If by "sinner" we mean "someone that acts in ways disapproved of by their religion" then pretty much all religions have that concept too.

However, in our society which is heavily influenced by Christianity, the term tends to bring up ideas of "Original Sin" or concepts of natural human depravity. I think most religions actually reject this particular concept (even some minority forms of Christianity reject it).

That said, if the words "sin" and "sinner" make you uncomfortable, you can always use different terms.

Jenett

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 12:40:29 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;69542
ive been wondering about this lately.
does sins,sinner...etc apply if you aren't Christian?
do any other religious Systems deal in the sin concept?
sins....discuss?

 
One of my favourite definitions of sin - heard while I was in Catholic pre-confirmation classes - is that sin is that which separates you from God (or more generally, the Divine).

By that definition, there are definitely things I can do that are sins. Many of them are less explicitly defined than in Christianity (or Judaism, or Islam), because one of the things about being a religion of the Book is that that sort of thing is written down and people have done commentary on it, and so on. But I'm also pretty clear on what they are.

(Refusing a direct request from M'Lady when I get that ping of "do something about this, please." Certain kinds of not doing reasonably good work when helping people find information or resources. Being stupid about how I treat my body in some specific ways - which is sometimes a moving target that changes over time.)
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WaywardOne

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Re: the concept of sins,outside of xian realms?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 11:14:48 pm »
There are absolutely concepts of sin within other belief systems. Also, within Christianity, it is not simply believed that the "devil" causes all sin. It is believed that sin is a nature within us. We have a sin-nature and are inclined to feel tempted to do things that are considered immoral within society or within our spiritual realm. That is the belief within Christianity, but it is not exclusive to Christianity. This idea, in whatever form you might want to describe it, is noticeable in many, many other realms. Also, I don't try to scare people with the devil and hell and so forth :) I do believe they exist, but whether or not others do is their business.

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