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RandallS

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Re: Storm
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2013, 08:08:43 am »
Quote from: Jack;107673
I would say that's your own personal struggle to engage in. None of us can give you faith. Hell, the gods haven't given me faith, and I talk to them. I don't think most of us are here to prove things to others, but rather to work things out for ourselves with feedback and camaraderie.

This is a point that many non-Pagans do not understand: unlike religions like Christianity and Islam, few Pagan religions require their members to be out looking for converts. If someone doesn't believe in the deities I do, I feel no need to convince them to. If someone thinks my deities don't exist, I feel no pressing need to prove that they do. If someone thinks I'm mentally ill because I believe in Zeus and company, I don't care any more than I care if they think I'm mental because I play Dungeons & Dragons or because I don't like to play golf.
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Re: Storm
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2013, 08:51:26 am »
Quote from: RandallS;107684
If someone thinks I'm mentally ill because I believe in Zeus and company, I don't care any more than I care if they think I'm mental because I play Dungeons & Dragons or because I don't like to play golf.

 
Though, to be relevant to my understanding of the topic under discussion, if they make a point of saying so, I will probably figure they're a colossal jerk.  Much like the people who call those who disagree with them politically mentally ill also come across as colossal jerks.
as the water grinds the stone
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Storm
« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2013, 11:08:20 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107677
Ohhh my god. Look at how clever you think you are right now. Because getting the point Tim Minchin is making is exactly like having blind faith! Geddit? Geddit? I also worship in the Church of Science. You and Storm would get on swimmingly. *patronizing wink*

Well, okay, I guess that was a pretty stupid joke, huh? I didn't expect it to chase you out of the whole thread, though.
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Jack

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Storm
« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2013, 11:17:03 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;107686
Though, to be relevant to my understanding of the topic under discussion, if they make a point of saying so, I will probably figure they're a colossal jerk.  Much like the people who call those who disagree with them politically mentally ill also come across as colossal jerks.

Certainly I'm not going to invite them back for dinner anyway. ;)

There are Christians who think I'm going to Hell, too, and I take them exactly as seriously when they rant about my beliefs on YouTube. It's just one of those facets of human nature, I guess.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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RandallS

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Re: Storm
« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2013, 06:46:37 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;107686
Though, to be relevant to my understanding of the topic under discussion, if they make a point of saying so, I will probably figure they're a colossal jerk.  Much like the people who call those who disagree with them politically mentally ill also come across as colossal jerks.

True, I wouldn't be inviting anyone like that to visit again.
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Astani

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Re: Storm
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2013, 01:39:15 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107555
Nope. I disagree.

I think love and faith both exist, but there's clear evidence that the objects of love exist. There's a significant lack of evidence that the objects of faith exist.

I often meet people in online gaming who claim to have supermodel girlfriends who adore them - but they can't *actually* prove they exist. I think that's a closer comparison than simply the emotion of love.

Are love and faith be as exclusive as you put it? Can I not be faithful to my mother and love her at the same time? According to what you say, I can't because since I'm faithful to her she doesn't exist.

Quote from: Humphrey;107346
But why can't religious experiences be denied?

I think they can. Empirical evidence will dictate my judgment. However, even if I find that a person's religious experience was actually explainable by something natural, it doesn't necessarily mean they were lying or mentally ill. They were just wrong scientifically speaking.

But I think it should be noted that empirical evidence is more involved with science than religion. And that you can't use science (and empirical evidence) to "bunk" or prove the existence of or truth behind religious beliefs, god(s), or myths. All those things are supernatural, or "above nature." Science can only explain things that are natural and it doesn't care about anything else.

On the video: I don't like Storm. And for the same reasons that Tim doesn't like her.  She is right though. Science falls into a hole when it tries to explain the nature of the soul. But the funny thing is, science doesn't do that at all. So I guess she's not right. She would've been right if science did do that. But, again, science does not and cannot prove/disprove the supernatural.

Lol he does sound a total butt though. And the part where his wife gave him a warning to not engage Storm was very funny.

Further watching of the video makes me conclude that I would not have enjoyed that dinner party with Storm at all. But then I wouldn't have liked it because of Tim either. He's just as black and white as Storm.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 01:41:09 am by Astani »

Astani

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Re: Storm
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2013, 01:59:22 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107677

I think the valuable input happened pages ago. All that's going on now is we're going around in circles. Thank you to everyone, especially Sage and Rainbo, who gave me some truly challenging things to think about. The one thing I can see is that I'm not articulating my point of view well enough for it to not be open to wild misinterpretation, so that's something I need to work on. For now, I'm exiting this conversation, though I encourage the discussion to continue.

 
Aww poop. I just saw this. Can't really have a discussion when you're the only one on the other side of the discussion and leaving :(

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Re: Storm
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2013, 08:09:03 am »
Quote from: Astani;107825
Science can only explain things that are natural and it doesn't care about anything else.

 
I think it more accurate to say that science cannot and will not provide meaning.  "Meaning" is a thing that's created inside the brain, the whole realm of value judgements, associations, symbolic connections, and so on that is the realm of religion, philosophy, ethics, poetry, and art.

Science can get you facts, but it can't tell you what to do with those facts, how to feel about those facts, or what those facts mean to you.

(I not only find this angle more useful in general, I appreciate that it does not require the assumption that "religion" deals with the "supernatural".  If I felt that religious matters were supernatural, I would be an atheist.)
as the water grinds the stone
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Astani

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Re: Storm
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2013, 11:07:05 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;107835
I think it more accurate to say that science cannot and will not provide meaning.


Ah that was a point I forgot to make, too. Thanks for adding that. It can't provide meaning because that would require, amongst other things, morals. Science deals only with nature, which is amoral.

Quote from: Darkhawk;107835
If I felt that religious matters were supernatural, I would be an atheist.


Why? Do you believe the supernatural doesn't exist? What do you consider religious matters are? If you find my categorization of religious matters as supernatural offensive, I apologize.

Darkhawk

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Re: Storm
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2013, 11:25:34 am »
Quote from: Astani;107846
Why? Do you believe the supernatural doesn't exist?


I believe I posted something to that effect in the thread already.

Quote
What do you consider religious matters are?

 
... religious.  Which is a part of the natural world, like the gods are.
as the water grinds the stone
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Re: Storm
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2013, 01:05:30 pm »
Quote from: Humphrey;107618
I'm busy responding to three separate people and I'm struggling to be both quick and 100% articulate.

 
Quote from: Humphrey;107620
Anyway, I really do need to go.

 
Humphrey has apparently left the thread and can't benefit from what I'm about to note, but perhaps others might do so. I've seen this happen time and again in heated threads, and it's so futile.

Trying to be 100% articulate, and at the same time respond to everyone's posts as fast as they make them, usually means one succeeds in neither.  A thread is not a realtime chatroom; the conversation will still be there if one takes 20 minutes, or even an hour or more, making sure one's reply really is clear and communicative; it will still be there the next day if one needs to go do other things, or just to take a break and get unwound (heck, it'll still be there years later, and unless we need to change forum software again, it'll still be possible to reply).  There is no obligation to respond immediately, nor even to explain why one is not responding immediately.

When I realized, from the consecutive posts I quoted, that Humphrey was trying to keep up with immediate responses, I looked back through the thread - and found that just short of five pages of posts had been made in under four hours, about half of which were Humphrey responding to responses.  No wonder her communication was going all to hell!

When someone gets caught in that cycle, the quality of debate and discussion suffers, to everyone's detriment.  Since the thread is still going to be there, not just the next day but for years to come (and for all to see), it makes sense to take one's time, and not try to respond to everything all at once as quickly as possible.

'Course, if you actually want to do it that way, that's your call - but there's no rule, written or unwritten, that says you have to reply to everything immediately.

This has been a Public Service Rant.  Please resume your regularly-scheduled debate:D:.

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Kira

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Re: Storm
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2013, 07:25:51 pm »
Quote from: Astani;107827
Aww poop. I just saw this. Can't really have a discussion when you're the only one on the other side of the discussion and leaving :(

I just noticed, too, and all I kept thinking when I was reading Humphrey's posts was that stalking often does come with evidence.  YOu know, things like unwanted gifts and unwanted encouters and letters and restraining orders and police reports and a feeling of not being safe from the stalk-ee.  And I've never heard of someone getting a restraining order from a deity.  A polite sense (or not so much) of PFO, maybe, but not a restraining order.

Anyway.  I realize this is coming kind of out of left field in relation to what the actual discussion was, but it was obsessively bugging me.  Then again, I am really sunburned and not braining at optimum levels.  Go me.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 07:31:12 pm by Kira »

Jack

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Re: Storm
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2013, 07:58:39 pm »
Quote from: Kira;107890
And I've never heard of someone getting a restraining order from a deity.  A polite sense (or not so much) of PFO, maybe, but not a restraining order.

 
I suppose the problem there is that, to get an actual restraining order, the god in question would have to show up in court.
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Kira

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Re: Storm
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2013, 08:31:02 pm »
Quote from: Jack;107891
I suppose the problem there is that, to get an actual restraining order, the god in question would have to show up in court.


lol - I guess that would be an issue.  Could they send a lawyer?  I have no idea how that happens - for deities or civvies.  

Aaaaannd...suddenly, all I can think about is how awesome and entertaining it would be if a god showed up on Judge Judy.

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Re: Storm
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2013, 08:58:43 pm »
Quote from: Kira;107895
lol - I guess that would be an issue.  Could they send a lawyer?  I have no idea how that happens - for deities or civvies.  

Aaaaannd...suddenly, all I can think about is how awesome and entertaining it would be if a god showed up on Judge Judy.

 
There have been suits against the Christian God and Satan, but sadly the divine never bothered to respond.
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