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Author Topic: Storm  (Read 6042 times)

Humphrey

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Storm
« on: May 02, 2013, 06:25:00 am »
As I've mentioned, I used to hold quite religious beliefs, and then I found myself skeptical. I'm still drawn to a fairly occultic path though, which is why I'm here.

One of the turning points for me was this video: Tim Minchin's 'Storm'.

[video=youtube;HhGuXCuDb1U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U[/video]

I would like to know from those of you here who want to answer, what is your take on the arguments found in this poem? Do you have counter arguments? Do you find them challenging or pointless, and why?

Sarah

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Re: Storm
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 07:06:25 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107338


I would like to know from those of you here who want to answer, what is your take on the arguments found in this poem? Do you have counter arguments? Do you find them challenging or pointless, and why?

 
he sounds like an insufferable arse. truly his life is so hard, how dare someone have different beliefs to his.

"Alternative medicine" is a big category and some of it is bunk, some of it is placebo (and if a placebo works to make someone better then that is still beneficial), some of it works for some people and not others and some works really well.  

I love science but i still think there is a place for the critiques of how it is used and how current scientific method is shaped by patriarchal capitalism and all the nastiness that comes with that. (same with Big Pharma and the medical establishment)

People have religious experiences, that can't be denied, how and why can be argued but to call them crazy is  rude and ignorant.

I really hate his "cheap man-made
myths and monsters?" bit. Myths and stories are important they are central to what makes us human, they are an integral part of ourselves and our history as humanity. We need stories to be human
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 07:48:43 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
he sounds like an insufferable arse. truly his life is so hard, how dare someone have different beliefs to his.


Tim Minchin is a genius. I guess a bit insufferable yeah, but you should youtube some of his other work. I really respect him.

Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
"Alternative medicine" is a big category and some of it is bunk, some of it is placebo (and if a placebo works to make someone better then that is still beneficial), some of it works for some people and not others and some works really well.  


Kay now see, I already know that he's correct on alternative medicine. As for the Placebo effect, it's largely misunderstood.

Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
I love science but i still think there is a place for the critiques of how it is used and how current scientific method is shaped by patriarchal capitalism and all the nastiness that comes with that. (same with Big Pharma and the medical establishment)


Eh. Ok. I respect this point of view, but it's not one I can personally get on board with.

Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
People have religious experiences, that can't be denied, how and why can be argued but to call them crazy is  rude and ignorant.


Yes, when he states that people are either lying or mentally ill, I took in a breath and shuddered. It is rude. But why can't religious experiences be denied? Children often have imaginary friends, but it's quite acceptable to assume those aren't real.

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone's beliefs here. What I'm trying to do is find answers to my questions. I have always believed in the supernatural. The sudden feeling that nothing is out there is a new one for me, but I can't just pretend to believe in stuff because I would like to. I need to ask questions, sometimes even slightly rude ones, and I need them answered.

Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
I really hate his "cheap man-made
myths and monsters?" bit. Myths and stories are important they are central to what makes us human, they are an integral part of ourselves and our history as humanity. We need stories to be human

 
Well my passion is stories so I'm with you there. I do believe stories are important. (Though that doesn't mean I believe the stories.) Regardless, I also really love his "isn't this enough?" bit. It gave me, a person who grew up longing to live in a fantasy world, a new perspective.

Chabas

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Re: Storm
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 08:20:41 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107346


Eh. Ok. I respect this point of view, but it's not one I can personally get on board with.


 
Ok, that READS as "I feel that science is beyond reproach and criticism". Now I AM a scientist - the working-on-a-PhD, researching-full-time-in-a-medical-center kind - and I can tell you that there most definitely ARE issues in science, and PARTICULARLY when it comes to medicine. There are a LOT of medical trials that get run but never published, and those ARE disproportionately the ones whose results are unfavorable to the company producing the medication in question. Null results in general are hard as hell to get published, which means that 1) people depend on getting *some* result to get their degrees and reach the publication quota and 2) a one-off false positive will get published, and all the studies who get null results on the same test do not get published, creating an illusory effect in the literature.

So yeah, speaking from the inside: there are DEFINITELY issues with the current state of medical research.

--Chabas

Sarah

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Re: Storm
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 08:28:35 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107346
Tim Minchin is a genius. I guess a bit insufferable yeah, but you should youtube some of his other work. I really respect him.


I don't want to youtube him.  


Quote from: Humphrey;107346

Kay now see, I already know that he's correct on alternative medicine. As for the Placebo effect, it's largely misunderstood.


I know what a placebo is and how it works. Are you saying you don't think any alternative medicine ever works?



Quote from: Humphrey;107346

Yes, when he states that people are either lying or mentally ill, I took in a breath and shuddered. It is rude. But why can't religious experiences be denied?  


  I think it's different to be skeptical sometimes of individual religious experiences sometimes and to discount all religious experiences as bunk.



 
Quote from: Humphrey;107346
Well my passion is stories so I'm with you there. I do believe stories are important. (Though that doesn't mean I believe the stories.) Regardless, I also really love his "isn't this enough?" bit. It gave me, a person who grew up longing to live in a fantasy world, a new perspective.


But stories very often teach us how to live in the real world
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2013, 08:30:55 am »
Quote from: Chabas;107354
Ok, that READS as "I feel that science is beyond reproach and criticism". Now I AM a scientist - the working-on-a-PhD, researching-full-time-in-a-medical-center kind - and I can tell you that there most definitely ARE issues in science, and PARTICULARLY when it comes to medicine. There are a LOT of medical trials that get run but never published, and those ARE disproportionately the ones whose results are unfavorable to the company producing the medication in question. Null results in general are hard as hell to get published, which means that 1) people depend on getting *some* result to get their degrees and reach the publication quota and 2) a one-off false positive will get published, and all the studies who get null results on the same test do not get published, creating an illusory effect in the literature.

So yeah, speaking from the inside: there are DEFINITELY issues with the current state of medical research.

--Chabas

 
Oh I don't deny this. I certainly don't believe science is beyond reproach or criticism. However, I still believe science is the most reliable source we have, especially with regards to medical research. Also, if we're going to compare, all those troubles and far more can be found in areas such as homeopathy and religion.

Sarah

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Re: Storm
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2013, 08:35:41 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107361
Oh I don't deny this. I certainly don't believe science is beyond reproach or criticism. However, I still believe science is the most reliable source we have, especially with regards to medical research. Also, if we're going to compare, all those troubles and far more can be found in areas such as homeopathy and religion.

 
 But I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean that the way science is done today doesn't have major issues.  Without my scientifically researched and tested medication I WOULD DIE, that doesn't mean i don't also use essential oils and herbs as and when I feel is necessary. And it also doesn't mean that I haven't been on the receiving end of sexism and ablism from the medical establishment
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 08:36:49 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107357
I don't want to youtube him.  


Um. Kay.


Quote from: maybeimawitch;107357
I know what a placebo is and how it works. Are you saying you don't think any alternative medicine ever works?



Alternative medicine is, by definition, medicine that has not been proven to work or medicine that has been proven not to work. Alternative medicine that has been proven to work is called medicine.

This does not mean I believe in running to the doctor for anti-biotics every time I have a cold, but when I take natural remedies to fix a sore throat, these are natural remedies that have been proven to work.


Quote from: maybeimawitch;107357
I think it's different to be skeptical sometimes of individual religious experiences sometimes and to discount all religious experiences as bunk.


I agree. Tim Minchin does not, obviously, but I think that's his right. Everyone has a right to an opinion, including the opinion that another person's opinion is a stupid opinion. This includes your opinion that Tim Minchin's opinion is.. well you get what I mean.

Quote from: maybeimawitch;107357
But stories very often teach us how to live in the real world

 
Absolutely. As I said, I agree that stories really matter.

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 08:39:38 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107362
But I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean that the way science is done today doesn't have major issues.  Without my scientifically researched and tested medication I WOULD DIE, that doesn't mean i don't also use essential oils and herbs as and when I feel is necessary. And it also doesn't mean that I haven't been on the receiving end of sexism and ablism from the medical establishment

Then I misunderstood you.

I find it strange that medicinal properties can be assigned to herbs and essential oils without proper medical research and proof. I will use herbs as well, but ones that science has proven to work.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:40:00 am by Humphrey »

Sarah

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Re: Storm
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 08:46:05 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107363



Alternative medicine is, by definition, medicine that has not been proven to work or medicine that has been proven not to work. Alternative medicine that has been proven to work is called medicine.


That maybe yours and Tim's definition but it's not the accepted definition. Alternative medicine is that which is not supplied by the medical establishment.


Quote from: Humphrey;107363

I agree. Tim Minchin does not, obviously, but I think that's his right. Everyone has a right to an opinion, including the opinion that another person's opinion is a stupid opinion. This includes your opinion that Tim Minchin's opinion is.. well you get what I mean.


well yeah but we are not discussing weather he has a right to his opinion, we are discussing what we think of his opinion (the whole "but people have a right to their opinions"! is beyond irritating in a discussion like this)
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Darkhawk

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Re: Storm
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 08:50:17 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107342
"Alternative medicine" is a big category and some of it is bunk, some of it is placebo (and if a placebo works to make someone better then that is still beneficial), some of it works for some people and not others and some works really well.  

 
The Celt is quite fond of a scientific study of acupuncture for a particular thing (I don't recall what, unfortunately) where of the three things tested BY SCIENCE, the acupuncture solution was the most effective.

Placebo was the second most effective.

Western technocratic medicine was the least effective.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 08:54:20 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107366
That maybe yours and Tim's definition but it's not the accepted definition. Alternative medicine is that which is not supplied by the medical establishment.

And also this explanation here that says "Alternative medicine is any medical treatment that is not part of conventional evidence-based medicine"? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine If there is alternative medicine that has been proven to work then I'd like to know how to tell what has been proven and what hasn't.


Quote from: maybeimawitch;107366
well yeah but we are not discussing weather he has a right to his opinion, we are discussing what we think of his opinion (the whole "but people have a right to their opinions"! is beyond irritating in a discussion like this)

Sure. What I'm saying is, I'm not bothered in the slightest at a person dismissing all religious experiences as bunk. I get that you are though.

Quote from: Darkhawk;107371
The Celt is quite fond of a scientific study of acupuncture for a particular thing (I don't recall what, unfortunately) where of the three things tested BY SCIENCE, the acupuncture solution was the most effective.

Placebo was the second most effective.

Western technocratic medicine was the least effective.

This sounds awesome, and it's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. I would like to see the study?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:56:07 am by Humphrey »

Darkhawk

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Re: Storm
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2013, 09:10:37 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107376
And also this explanation here that says "Alternative medicine is any medical treatment that is not part of conventional evidence-based medicine"? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine If there is alternative medicine that has been proven to work then I'd like to know how to tell what has been proven and what hasn't.


It's worth noting that there is stuff that Western-type science cannot actually effectively test to the levels that some people want.  Acupuncture is a decent for-example: it requires a certain amount of training to do placebo acupuncture safely, it is generally known that there is a positive effect from attentive physical contact that is difficult to extricate from the particular points, and under some of the belief systems common to the structure the intent of the practitioner has effects on the technique (meaning that even applied placebo may have intent-derived healing effects).  ("Qi flows where attention goes.")  Since non-penetrative acupuncture is also a common technique (it's a default for some modes of pediatrics), one can't placebo by just prodding people in the correct points, either.

Comparative studies can be done ("acupuncture support for recovery from knee surgery" vs. "no acupuncture treatment for recovery from knee surgery"), sure, but that doesn't get into the BUT HOW DOES IT WORK that a lot of people expect a Western science solution to provide.

Meanwhile, TCM is a medical system that has been under development for several thousand continuous years, refined by what works and what doesn't (and then culled for the ideologically correct by the modern Chinese government).  If you just want empirical results, that's a reasonably lengthy trial period.
 
Quote
Sure. What I'm saying is, I'm not bothered in the slightest at a person dismissing all religious experiences as bunk. I get that you are though.


Would you be bothered by someone claiming that anyone who claims to love a partner (or a child) is a delusional idiot?

Quote
This sounds awesome, and it's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. I would like to see the study?

 
A quick google pulls up this, which might help you track stuff down.  I don't know if it's the study he referred to, but it's something.

http://www.futurity.org/top-stories/acupuncture-beats-placebo-for-pain-relief/
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Humphrey

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Re: Storm
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2013, 09:46:38 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;107388
It's worth noting that there is stuff that Western-type science cannot actually effectively test to the levels that some people want.  Acupuncture is a decent for-example: it requires a certain amount of training to do placebo acupuncture safely, it is generally known that there is a positive effect from attentive physical contact that is difficult to extricate from the particular points, and under some of the belief systems common to the structure the intent of the practitioner has effects on the technique (meaning that even applied placebo may have intent-derived healing effects).  ("Qi flows where attention goes.")  Since non-penetrative acupuncture is also a common technique (it's a default for some modes of pediatrics), one can't placebo by just prodding people in the correct points, either.

Comparative studies can be done ("acupuncture support for recovery from knee surgery" vs. "no acupuncture treatment for recovery from knee surgery"), sure, but that doesn't get into the BUT HOW DOES IT WORK that a lot of people expect a Western science solution to provide.

Meanwhile, TCM is a medical system that has been under development for several thousand continuous years, refined by what works and what doesn't (and then culled for the ideologically correct by the modern Chinese government).  If you just want empirical results, that's a reasonably lengthy trial period.

 
I understand that it can be complicated to try prove the effectiveness of certain alternative medicines, but I don't think that's really here or there. If a medicine has not yet been proven to work, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means it's maybe not something that should be held above medicine that has been proven to work. I can understand that, potentially, the medicine might turn out to work better than the medicine we have right now, but that is a bit of a gamble.

I don't trust alternative medicine. I don't think it's wise to put faith into alternative medicine. I suppose I wouldn't see much harm in using alternative medicine on top of normal medicine, but I think medicine is a bit of a dangerous area to mess about with.
Example: http://edzardernst.com/2013/04/cancer-patients-who-use-alternative-medicine-die-sooner/

Quote from: Darkhawk;107388
Would you be bothered by someone claiming that anyone who claims to love a partner (or a child) is a delusional idiot?


A common comparison but not a particularly effective one. Love for real people and religious experience are two different things. "Love without evidence is stalking." - Tim Minchin

I'm more bothered at a person who writes someone off completely because they saw one video where he said something they don't like in a less than polite way to be honest. Different strokes eh?
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;107388
A quick google pulls up this, which might help you track stuff down.  I don't know if it's the study he referred to, but it's something.

http://www.futurity.org/top-stories/acupuncture-beats-placebo-for-pain-relief/


I should revisit the question, am I saying I believe alternative medicine never works? No, I don't believe that. As far as I'm aware, some alternative medicine, such as acupuncture, do show positive results. It works, but we're not 100% certain why?

The issue I would have with alternative medicine personally is when it's held in higher esteem than actual medicine, or when the belief in it is gullible or dangerous. A great deal of alternative medicine straight up doesn't work. When there are signs that it does work, we should research that as scientifically as we possibly can until we can understand why it works.

Sarah

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Re: Storm
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2013, 09:57:24 am »
Quote from: Humphrey;107393


The issue I would have with alternative medicine personally is when it's held in higher esteem than actual medicine, .

 
I don't think anyone on this forum actually does that though
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

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