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Author Topic: Religious truth  (Read 783 times)

EclecticWheel

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Religious truth
« on: April 14, 2018, 09:28:44 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  I know there are nuanced possibilities to include a less hard and fast take on that matter, but hopefully I am still getting my thought across.

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

Or perhaps the spiritual realms are just projections of our own imaginative thinking and feelings, sort of like a collective set of stories we tell to ponder and make sense of things.

I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?
Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

EclecticWheel

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 09:31:35 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  I know there are nuanced possibilities to include a less hard and fast take on that matter, but hopefully I am still getting my thought across.

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

Or perhaps the spiritual realms are just projections of our own imaginative thinking and feelings, sort of like a collective set of stories we tell to ponder and make sense of things.

I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

Note: I meant to relabel this post "Spiritual Truth"
Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Castus

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 11:02:49 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  I know there are nuanced possibilities to include a less hard and fast take on that matter, but hopefully I am still getting my thought across.

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

Or perhaps the spiritual realms are just projections of our own imaginative thinking and feelings, sort of like a collective set of stories we tell to ponder and make sense of things.

I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

I firmly oppose any notion of subjective truth or reality, in that I believe that there is indeed one, single truth. Multiple things cannot be true, therefore only one thing is true. But, and this is the kicker, at this point I have no goddamn idea what The Truth religiously is and have just been rolling the dice for a couple years now.

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 03:56:24 pm »
I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

There is only one cosmos.  Vivisecting it into "physical realm" and "spiritual realm(s)" kills it dead.

Truth is a statement about meaning.  It's about the construction, the interrelationship between subjective understanding and the rest of the world.  Truth is intrinsically a liminal concept, a creature of interstitial and numinous spaces.

To be simplistic:

What does red mean?  What is the truth in red?  Is red about danger, blood, love, evil, life, fire, anger, lust, heroism, sacrifice, luck, beauty, hatred, death, power, mourning, sin, happiness, divine presence, weddings, physicality, action, protection?

Yes.  That is some of what red means.

Which meanings come to a person's mind depend on their culture of origin, their spiritual understandings of the world, their symbological preferences, their individual quirks.  There is no truth without reference to some standpoint; truth is kaleidoscopic, fractal, intimate.  Without an interpreting brain it cannot exist; given the existence of seven billion or so human brains (not speaking to other entities with the power of interpretations) consensus is largely implausible.  Especially since some of them are red-green colourblind.

Facts are just things, out there, they offer no meaning, no insight, no way forward.

Truth is all in what people try to do with things.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

tzikanti

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 04:58:44 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  I know there are nuanced possibilities to include a less hard and fast take on that matter, but hopefully I am still getting my thought across.

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

Or perhaps the spiritual realms are just projections of our own imaginative thinking and feelings, sort of like a collective set of stories we tell to ponder and make sense of things.

I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

What you are delving into is Epistemology, the branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of knowledge. It is very complicated, and I have little education in that area, or any formal philosophy for that matter, so I won't try to go into it very deeply, but it may be something you'll be interested in learning more about.

Regardless of whether truth is constructed in people's minds, or is somehow some reality that exists outside of those perceiving it is a matter of some contention, but I'd rather talk about how we can be sure we know something. Unless you subscribe very firmly to brain in a jar or simulated universe theories, probably the most reliable way of knowing "truth" is the scientific method- through observation and experimentation scientists are able to construct theories that allow us to be very confident about certain facts of our physical reality. Even if one is not a scientist, one can be reasonably certain that bacteria and viruses cause diseases, life evolved through millions of years of natural selection, and light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Fields like history, sociology, and economics are less certain, because it deals with conceptual frameworks that exist in our minds; nevertheless they still rely on evidence. Spirituality and religion is an entirely different animal, and deals with entirely different notions of "truth." Spiritual encounters happen within one's individual subjective experiences, within the mind. They cannot be proven or disproven, and are filtered through our own thoughts, feelings, and limited perspectives. They are not quantifiable. Frankly, spiritual experiences are often vague, and difficult to interpret! Perhaps one day scientists will be able to put a God under a microscope, as it were, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

The point is, it's impossible to know for certain, empirically and objectively what spiritual truth even is, so I don't really worry myself about trying to arrive at certainty. My experiences and those of others are persuasive and convincing, so I do put in the effort to interpret and understand them as best as I can, and what their place is in my life. And I do like to speculate about what the Divine is, what They want, and so on. But it's necessarily not something to be nailed down. And for many people, the doubt of what was an authentic experience, and what was "in my head" will remain. Inevitably, I think all spiritual experiences will pick up some of our own thoughts and feelings.

For my part, though, I tend to believe that several contradictory spiritual ideas are "true" in that they represent different approaches, views, and ways of interpreting spiritual experiences. I'm polytheist and reasonably hard,  but I don't think monotheism or the stronger forms of monism are wrong, so much as it's a matter of whether one looks at the forest or the trees. YMMV.

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 10:26:56 am »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  ...

How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

There's a verse from the Rig Veda that translates as "One Truth the sages call by many names". I think the issue is that we don't know the nature of that Truth. We won't know it until we shake off being clouded by the material and physical world. I don't like the word "illusion", because the world is indeed very real (ask any woman in labor how real it is  ;)) but it's like a veil that prevents us from seeing beyond it. The rishis (sages), teachers, gurus, saints, wrote extensively on how to break through, but it's very difficult because this world is so tempting and misleading.
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

Lumpino

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 01:08:28 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm. .....

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

....

What a meditation about a name of a god, or goddess and ask him/her what they thinking about? Like Hindu bhaktiyogis - see Ramakrishna and his vision mother Kali, Hebrew kabbalists -See Sefer Raziel ha-malach, some christian mystics, or like it was in ancient mysteries,  see Egyptian mysteries by Jamblichos of Chalkis...... etc.


And ask him/her what he/she thinking about?

Altair

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 04:10:53 am »
There is only one cosmos.  Vivisecting it into "physical realm" and "spiritual realm(s)" kills it dead.

Truth is a statement about meaning.  It's about the construction, the interrelationship between subjective understanding and the rest of the world.  Truth is intrinsically a liminal concept, a creature of interstitial and numinous spaces.

To be simplistic:

What does red mean?  What is the truth in red?  Is red about danger, blood, love, evil, life, fire, anger, lust, heroism, sacrifice, luck, beauty, hatred, death, power, mourning, sin, happiness, divine presence, weddings, physicality, action, protection?

Yes.  That is some of what red means.

Which meanings come to a person's mind depend on their culture of origin, their spiritual understandings of the world, their symbological preferences, their individual quirks.  There is no truth without reference to some standpoint; truth is kaleidoscopic, fractal, intimate.  Without an interpreting brain it cannot exist; given the existence of seven billion or so human brains (not speaking to other entities with the power of interpretations) consensus is largely implausible.  Especially since some of them are red-green colourblind.

Facts are just things, out there, they offer no meaning, no insight, no way forward.

Truth is all in what people try to do with things.

This. I tried to put it all fancy, in a myth called "Truth and Consequences":

Quote
[div style=""][big snip]
The silver sigil on its cover and the numinous wonder it inspired confirmed it; this was indeed what they’d sought for so long: the Book of Truth. In an atmosphere charged with anticipation and rejoicing, the book was opened with great ceremony. A moment later, an astonished gasp went up from the crowd.
Every single page was blank.

[snip]
A cry of lamentation rose from Terra, a cry so great that it was heard even in the Well of Souls. Serene, aghast, rushed to Night to seek her father’s advice.
“I don’t understand,” she wept. “How could they look at those pages and see nothing?”
His dark countenance seemingly darker than ever, Night answered his errant daughter: “You gave one of them mice; could the humans see them?” Serene shuddered, learning with those words that her father knew of the part she’d played in the book’s theft.
“It’s the same with the book. Humans are illiterate, incapable of grasping our language. They look at the pages but fail to note their substance, the way they move, the play of shadows across their surface. No wonder then that to them the truth is a blank.”

[snip]
One more task remained. “The Book of Truth cannot go back to Night’s library,” Chronos declared, “for sooner or later, someone will try to steal the book as if the theft were a new idea. And even without Serene’s help, they might succeed, and undo my work here. So the pages must be scattered, their origins unknown to forgetful humanity, and let them make of each page what they will.” Sure enough, spiritualists and scholars and artists and ordinary men and women alike are filled with wonder whenever they find one of these pages; and without knowing why, they are inspired to record on them truths as they see them. And for no other reason than that one of these pages serves as the canvas, they each find a way to believe in their truths. Thus was faith born into the world.

[snip]
Much later, with the world’s order restored and Umbra floating on the well’s water undisturbed, Serene turned to Night, still troubled. “Father,” she asked, “with what humans write on the pages they possess, don’t they define the essence of existence?”
“An astute observation,” Night’s said in his smooth voice, “relatively speaking.”
Serene paused, uncertain of her conclusion. “But since the very foundations of this house float on that essence, is it conceivable that, by what is written, humankind shapes our own home”—she gasped as a draft blew through the room, through newly opened doors she had never realized were closed to her before—“even us?”
Night took in the cold wind, satisfied. “Even us.”
And this? This is just a story. You decide how much of it is true.[/div]
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:20:11 am by Altair »
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Vixen

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 04:44:32 am »
The Truth and faith are things that are difficult to match in my mind, as the truth is almost synonymous with science to me. It is real, it can be proven. There's very little if nothing that can be proven when it comes to faith. Science and the truth they prove are to me proof that there is/are higher beings that guide us. Life can not be so perfect without guidance. There's some things science just can't prove, is maybe not meant to prove. So where science ends, faith goes on.

Yes, I believe there is only one Truth. But what that truth is, is too complicated and intricate for our little mortal minds to understand. I know many people love to philosophize about it, and I truly enjoy doing that too. But in the end, I think it's futile. We will never know the truth until we shed this physical shell. 




There's a verse from the Rig Veda that translates as "One Truth the sages call by many names". I think the issue is that we don't know the nature of that Truth. We won't know it until we shake off being clouded by the material and physical world. I don't like the word "illusion", because the world is indeed very real (ask any woman in labor how real it is  ;)) but it's like a veil that prevents us from seeing beyond it. The rishis (sages), teachers, gurus, saints, wrote extensively on how to break through, but it's very difficult because this world is so tempting and misleading.

I like this way of thinking about it.
You're only given a little spark of madness, you mustn't lose it.

Louisvillian

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 03:27:20 am »
How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?
I'm rather fond of what director John Boorman said, in describing his film Excalibur. He said, "The film has to do with mythical truth, not historical truth" in reference to its anarchonistic imagery and using many Frazerian motifs. What we know to be factual does not necessarily have to square up with what is true.
To me, truth is subjective. Facts are not, but truth isn't just the sum total of facts. It's how we interpret those facts and internalize what we learn from then, and how we view the world. Truth is, as Darkhawk said, about how we ascribe meaning to things.

Riothamus12

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2018, 01:45:21 pm »
I'm curious how others here perceive the nature of truth in the spiritual realm.  Do you think it's something exclusive?  There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.  I know there are nuanced possibilities to include a less hard and fast take on that matter, but hopefully I am still getting my thought across.

Or maybe in the spiritual realm there are somehow diverse truths that coexist in tension.  Perhaps there is a realm where the Abrahamic God is the only God, but another in which there are many gods, and people tap into different realms depending upon beliefs or other factors.

Or perhaps the spiritual realms are just projections of our own imaginative thinking and feelings, sort of like a collective set of stories we tell to ponder and make sense of things.

I'm sort of babbling right now, but maybe you get the idea.  How do you think truth works in the spiritual realm(s)?  Do you think it is different from how truth works in the physical realm?

To sum things up generally, everything is true in it's own way. People seem to forget that while the universe may not be utterly incomprehensible to human minds, it does not hinge on human logic. There is an objective truth, but that truth is wildly complicated. What may be right in one situation may be very wrong in another. Some things are literally true, some are metaphorically true, some are a combination. Hell, when you start getting into the more advanced aspects of occult metaphysics, you get to a point where you can say "It literally metaphorically happened that way" where the symbolic nature of a thing manifests as something very literal. There are countless avenues in the spirit wilds of the universe that humans have not properly explored, that even the most masterful mystics whether they be shamans, priests, witches, or something else have yet to delve into.

The Deities, Spirits, and even the Ancestors are not bound by the same strictures as living mortals, thus they have countless aspects which living humanity may not be aware of. The cosmos is layered and the physical realm has many of it's own mundane mysteries that we are only beginning to scratch the surface of through the scientific method. The bonds between all things manifest in often confounding ways.

Click it or something.It just seemed like it would be fun to toy around with.

arete

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 01:48:09 pm »
There is one God or many or none, but all these statements exclude the others.
God is the ''unknown''. That's why we have contradictions. The number of Gods isn't solid information.

Morbid

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 05:30:43 pm »
God is the ''unknown''. That's why we have contradictions. The number of Gods isn't solid information.

I can't tell if you're agreeing with what EW said or if you're trying to dispute them?? Because logically it can either be 0, 1, or multiple.  It's not possible to have 6 Gods and 0 at the same time.
For he who has truly lived never truly dies.

arete

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 11:37:36 am »
Because logically it can either be 0, 1, or multiple.
Exactly. All three statements are plausible. And we will never know which is the only correct one. So we shouldn't fight. We should accept all propabilities.

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Re: Religious truth
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 11:46:22 am »
Exactly. All three statements are plausible. And we will never know which is the only correct one. So we shouldn't fight. We should accept all propabilities.

On The Other Hand, I believe that I should "...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)."

That doesn't mean that I need to be disagreeable while doing so; it is possible to be firm and yet polite. If I do not do so, that's on me. But if I am and you have a problem with what I'm saying, then that's on you.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

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