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Author Topic: Religion and Feminism  (Read 2269 times)

Demophon

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Religion and Feminism
« on: October 26, 2018, 07:49:53 pm »
Religions usually have teachings about the social order, which includes gender. The traditional Abrahamic religions often aren't so positive about women, and modern pagan religions can be reactionary to the patriarchal views of dominant traditions. Religions like Wicca, and some of its derivatives to a greater extreme, like Dianic witchcraft, put significant emphasis on the power of femininity. However, Wicca was conceived before contemporary feminism, so while it gives great honour to women and the feminine divine, it's still quite clear that men and women are different and have different roles.

Reconstructionist pagan religions draw from ancient cultures, and although women served in temples as priestesses, usually for female deities, women and men had their own unique roles in society, and this was often legitimized through how the culture saw its deities. Female deities ruling over feminine functions, and male gods having influence over male spheres, although there were exceptions.

I wonder if feminist ideologies play a role in people's religions, and in what way. In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day, the differences of the sexes aren't valued very highly. Feminism often plays into the worldview of patriarchy, seeing anything traditionally associated with women, such as motherhood, emotional sensitivity, and nurturing, as degrading and less valuable than traditional masculine characteristics like being assertive, ambitious, and career-money-oriented. It's seen as empowering for women to take on men's roles, but women's roles are still made out to be degrading, so men often don't take them on. I think it's good that many ancient goddesses embody powerful femininity in its own right, although many pagans belong to the extreme left where cis-heteronormativity is evil, and what passes for "feminism" today just erodes the value of motherhood, beauty, the order of the household, etc.

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 10:28:00 pm »
I wonder if feminist ideologies play a role in people's religions, and in what way. In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day, the differences of the sexes aren't valued very highly.

I don't think that's necessarily accurate. Hinduism has acknowledged gender nonconformity, quite literally, since the Bronze Age. Third Gender and transgender people are an age old tradition in India.

That doesn't mean that Hinduism is feminist. I would argue it's slightly more feminist than traditional Abrahamic religions, but it has it's share of patriarchal and sexist ideas, and women and men certainly had gender roles in premodern Hindu society.

I'm personally a feminist myself, and oppose sex-based division of labor or rights, but I still don't think that Hinduism itself is feminist. So, I would argue that acceptance of gender nonconformity and feminist aren't mutually inclusive; one can exist without the other. You can have cis-sexist feminists, and you can have trans-inclusive sexism. Traditional Indian society had the later for a very long time.

"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 08:37:43 pm »
Feminism often plays into the worldview of patriarchy, seeing anything traditionally associated with women, such as motherhood, emotional sensitivity, and nurturing, as degrading and less valuable than traditional masculine characteristics like being assertive, ambitious, and career-money-oriented. It's seen as empowering for women to take on men's roles, but women's roles are still made out to be degrading, so men often don't take them on. I think it's good that many ancient goddesses embody powerful femininity in its own right, although many pagans belong to the extreme left where cis-heteronormativity is evil, and what passes for "feminism" today just erodes the value of motherhood, beauty, the order of the household, etc.

Yikes. I'm a feminist and this does not represent anything of what I believe or what most feminists I know believe. I think it makes sense to investigate specifically what is meant by the words "feminine" and "masculine": being curious about & recognizing the illusory natureof these hard binaries is part of my practice. Anything that implies traditional women's roles are undesirable is not feminism, but feminism often challenges the concept of gender roles to begin with. If you are curious about a more nuanced view of feminism and how it might relate to non-abrahamic religions (or even abrahamic, for that matter), or how feminism embraces both traditional and non traditional roles, I'd be happy to point you to some resources, but most of your assumptions here are really off.


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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2018, 02:32:20 pm »
In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day, the differences of the sexes aren't valued very highly.

What is your source for this logic? It seems to me that in a world where people feel free to embrace widely varied and comfortable gender identities that suit them, instead of being expected to fulfill limited roles fixed at birth by society, you would see a higher valuation of the various different expressions of gender, not the opposite. Indeed this is what I see in much of modern paganism--a lot of people taking the opportunity to examine and honor gender-related aspects of Divinity that had previously been marginalized and dismissed.
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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2018, 06:45:07 pm »
I wonder if feminist ideologies play a role in people's religions, and in what way.

Not mine. 

Not all humans are equal.  That is a fact.  Every individual human has their own strengths and weaknesses and this is one of the things my religion tends to focus on.  Recognizing one’s weaknesses and adapting and overcoming them, and finding one’s strengths- or new strengths- and developing those strengths and pushing one’s limits far past what you once imagined possible.  Regardless if you are male or female.

Biological sex is an important factor to consider, however.  My religion encourages one to embrace one’s body, no matter its sex.  Embrace it.  Develop it, train it, strengthen it, utilize and exploit it.  Harness its characteristics and its abilities and change the world. 

The human body is a mundane vessel housing a numinous mind, but a glorious machine nonetheless. If that machine has male anatomy, certain doors are open to you.  Certain futures await.  If that machine has female anatomy, certain doors are open for you.  Certain futures await.  And many doors are open and many futures await that have nothing to do with your sex.  But if you find a door with a thousand locks upon it- and you truly Will to see the other side- even if that door is forbidden or “meant” for someone or something else, then set your mind to making it through that door.  You’ll probably fail.   But if you do not then you have defied the odds and proven to yourself and the universe that the force of your Will was stronger then that door and it’s thousand locks. 

I hope it was worth it.  Or do I?

My ideology is not oriented towards any sex in particular.  There is no feminist idealogy within it, because I don’t care what sex my target audience is.  If my words touch their minds in some deep and profound way and inspires them to accomplish great things- beautiful or terrible- as a result, that is enough for me to feel pride in them... and in what I have created.





« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 06:50:03 pm by Goddess_Ashtara »
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Zlote Jablko

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2018, 11:02:05 pm »

Reconstructionist pagan religions draw from ancient cultures, and although women served in temples as priestesses, usually for female deities, women and men had their own unique roles in society, and this was often legitimized through how the culture saw its deities. Female deities ruling over feminine functions, and male gods having influence over male spheres, although there were exceptions.

I wonder if feminist ideologies play a role in people's religions, and in what way. In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day, the differences of the sexes aren't valued very highly. Feminism often plays into the worldview of patriarchy, seeing anything traditionally associated with women, such as motherhood, emotional sensitivity, and nurturing, as degrading and less valuable than traditional masculine characteristics like being assertive, ambitious, and career-money-oriented. It's seen as empowering for women to take on men's roles, but women's roles are still made out to be degrading, so men often don't take them on. I think it's good that many ancient goddesses embody powerful femininity in its own right, although many pagans belong to the extreme left where cis-heteronormativity is evil, and what passes for "feminism" today just erodes the value of motherhood, beauty, the order of the household, etc.

There’s a lot to unpack there.

There’s little doubt that the Slavs and their Bronze Age predecessors were patriarchal. Even today, Slavic countries are probably the most “traditional” European countries in this respect. One of the first things I noticed about the Slavic pantheon is how male-oriented it was. To an extent however, that may be because manuscripts recorded the most prestigious and conspicuous pagan cults. So for example, much has been made of Prince Vladimir’s “pantheon” of idols in Kiev, which contained only one female deity (Mokosha.) Yet Vladimir was attempting to make the capitol of his empire a religious center, and his pantheon was basically state sponsored.

By contrast if we look at Slavic folklore, we see many more female figures, more in-line with Baltic mythology. So it may have been a class difference. The peasants may have cared more about Zorya and the Rodzanitsy more than the elites of Kiev did. It’s important to remember that the version of paganism recorded by a particular culture generally favors the most dominant demographic of that culture. It’s not necessarily the tradition as it was seen by most women or even the common man.

On top of that, values changed with society in Eastern Europe. At one time, even the ancestors of the Slavs were hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers, people who presumably had very different views of gender than those that dominated the Bronze Age. Probably less patriarchal, though well-defined gender roles, from what we can reconstruct. Yet I believe some Goddesses probably date back to those periods.

 Later, with the invention of mounted archery, female warriors became fairly common among the Sarmatians (who lived near and influenced the Slavs a lot.) We see remnants of this influence in the mighty polyanitsa’s (female adventurers) of Russian epic songs, as well as some fairy tales. The Scythians had seers that were called enaree’s- basically men who acted like women. They foretold the future using linden wood, which in the Balto-Slavic traditions seems to be associated with the tree of the fate Goddess (Laima.)

Industrialization has once again shifted our norms concerning gender, but it has happened many times before. Culture changes with environment.

Of course the main reason to support feminism is that it’s fundamentally correct. Women do still face a systemic bias in many areas. Speak with any woman in STEM, for instance,  and I’ve found they pretty much all agree on that. I’ll take their word for it. As for clearly defined roles, I think many find them used, but nobody should be forced to fit.



« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 11:08:31 pm by Zlote Jablko »

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 01:29:41 am »
-...As for clearly defined roles, I think many find them used, but nobody should be forced to fit.

To clarify, many find gender roles *useful.* Not used.  :P

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 06:45:56 pm »
In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day....

I hear people saying that a lot, but they're usually binarists, and very often also dismissive of binary trans folks. While there are probably some young folks who are identifying as genderqueer, gender-fluid, or non-binary because their friends do (I'd be surprised if there were none, because humans), I haven't encountered them, and I'm acquainted or e-quainted with an awful lot of GQ/NB folks, being GQ myself. So from my perspective, what you said is basically just a ciscentrist/binarist strawman. Do you have any evidence to demonstrate otherwise?

My own GQ identity leads to another point, worth mentioning though you might not have been intentionally implying it: being GQ/NB isn't just about 'kids these days'. Many of us are not kids; some of us are much older. I'm almost twice your age.

And, no, I don't 'believe that [my] gender is whatever [I] feel like that day'. I have a gender, and it's a stable one; it just is neither 'man' nor 'woman'. Some people don't have one; some folks are genderfluid which means they don't have gender that's both singular and stable - but while it might shift on a daily, or even more frequent, basis, that doesn't mean it's 'whatever they feel like' in the, 'oh, I think I'd like a brownie for dessert instead of ice cream,' way that your phrasing connotes - again, I encounter this not as a GQ/NB reality but as a binarist strawman.

Quote
Feminism often plays into the worldview of patriarchy, seeing anything traditionally associated with women, such as motherhood, emotional sensitivity, and nurturing, as degrading and less valuable than traditional masculine characteristics like being assertive, ambitious, and career-money-oriented.

That has far more to do with the largely-white, largely mid-to-upper-middle-class, liberal feminism of the '70s and '80s than it does with feminism in twenty-teens, which is, broadly, much more intersectional and less inclined to throw working class women. women of color, women with disabilities, and neurodivergent women under the bus for not having, and in many cases not even having access to, high-powered and lucrative careers.

Are there still white UMC liberal feminists? Sure. Some of them are even still that ignorant/dismissive of non-UMC concerns. But they're hardly representative of feminism as any sort of whole anymore.

Quote
It's seen as empowering for women to take on men's roles, but women's roles are still made out to be degrading, so men often don't take them on.

Which has very little to do with feminism itself, and far more to do with sexism not having been resolved and feminism still being necessary. Unless one of your complaints about feminism involves blaming it for not being successful enough in fixing men?

Quote
... the extreme left where cis-heteronormativity is evil...

1) That really doesn't map very closely with how far left anyone is.

2) I don't know that I'd call it 'evil', per se, to normalize cissexuality and heterosexuality at the expense/marginalization of GLBT+ folks, but I would certainly call it injustice. I'd have thought you would, too, if only the 'normalizing heterosexuality at the expense of gay men' part. This leads me to wonder whether 'cis-heteronormativity' is actually what you're pointing to with this. Can you clarify just what you meant?

Quote
... and what passes for "feminism" today just erodes the value of motherhood, beauty, the order of the household, etc.

Buh?

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 10:03:54 am »
I don't know that I'd call it 'evil', per se, to normalize cissexuality and heterosexuality at the expense/marginalization of GLBT+ folks, but I would certainly call it injustice. I'd have thought you would, too, if only the 'normalizing heterosexuality at the expense of gay men' part.

As a white male, I'm usually demonized by the left along with the heterosexual white men, so I don't really sympathize with all these competing victim narratives complaining about imaginary sexism and white supremacy. Applying for jobs, university programs, etc. usually includes questionnaires about whether one is a visible minority, female, and so on, so being a qualified white man is difficult when there are quotas to be filled out of political correctness. It's a joke to think any of these groups are still oppressed. This kind of ideology enables politicians like Donald Trump, or Doug Ford, his equivalent here in Ontario. I don't support them and don't agree with anything politicians like that say, but I can relate to people who are frustrated by the left calling everyone a sexist homophobe white supremacist if they aren't a woman or minority, or a woman who doesn't make the choices they think they should.

I agree with equality of the sexes, but feminism has become more about man-hating, mostly led by lesbians who want to be men. It encourages women to be single and not to care about men, so women of this generation aren't happy. My evidence for this is anecdotal, just to clarify. I think these views have even leaked into the homosexual male community, and I have bought into this ideology myself and eventually found it problematic. Women are encouraged to go against their nature, which makes them unhappy. This is evident in something like abortion, where feminists all think is so empowering to be able to murder their child in the womb rather than to be a mother.

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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 10:37:18 am »
As a white male, I'm usually demonized by the left along with the heterosexual white men, so I don't really sympathize with all these competing victim narratives complaining about imaginary sexism and white supremacy. Applying for jobs, university programs, etc. usually includes questionnaires about whether one is a visible minority, female, and so on, so being a qualified white man is difficult when there are quotas to be filled out of political correctness. It's a joke to think any of these groups are still oppressed. This kind of ideology enables politicians like Donald Trump, or Doug Ford, his equivalent here in Ontario. I don't support them and don't agree with anything politicians like that say, but I can relate to people who are frustrated by the left calling everyone a sexist homophobe white supremacist if they aren't a woman or minority, or a woman who doesn't make the choices they think they should.

I agree with equality of the sexes, but feminism has become more about man-hating, mostly led by lesbians who want to be men. It encourages women to be single and not to care about men, so women of this generation aren't happy. My evidence for this is anecdotal, just to clarify. I think these views have even leaked into the homosexual male community, and I have bought into this ideology myself and eventually found it problematic. Women are encouraged to go against their nature, which makes them unhappy. This is evident in something like abortion, where feminists all think is so empowering to be able to murder their child in the womb rather than to be a mother.

Uh, no.

1. Lets not with the false equivalency stating that affirmative action "quotas" lead to white nationalist leaders in politics because that is SO not the case. I refuse to take it from anyone that it's the fault of women/POC/other minority groups for Trump and his ilk rising to power. That is a patently untrue falsehood that was made up to demonize minority groups and I'm not gonna take that laying down. Get some better sources or reassess what you're saying to others because people on the left do NOT call cis white men sexist homophobes if they aren't acting like sexist homophobes.

2. Boo-hoo. You have to compete with POC and women for jobs and college placement now, wah. I guarantee you that men, especially white men, still have it WAY easier to get a job, especially a leadership role. Case in point - my industry. Almost every director is a white man. You can point to female directors out there, and they exist, but they are the exception, not the rule. And there are people out there that think one or two female directors is too many, despite the industry itself being mostly 50/50, and that us ladies should be happy with our one or two token female directors. Despite the fact that we have ideas. Despite the fact that men take credit for our ideas. Despite the fact that we're harassed and mistreated and paid less. No. Fuck this ideology. Fuck the notion that you have to fight harder than I do. Despite what you think, having worked in HR, I guarantee you qualified candidates aren't passed over for unqualified candidates that match a certain demographic. Mad about it? Then be a goddamn adult and git gud.

3. Your entire last paragraph: What kind of toxic gender essentialism quiverfull bullshit is this? "Against my nature"? "Manhating lesbians"?? "Feminists all think it's so empowering to be able to murder their child"?!? What the fuck, dude. Like seriously, what the flying fuck. Nothing you said here is accurate. How dare you come in here and make these broad sweeping claims about feminists and women. How dare you declare that I'm an abhorrent being for daring to advocate for myself and my personal freedom, the kind of freedom that men have blithely enjoyed without a second thought for millennia. What's next, get in the kitchen and make you a sandwich?

Seriously, holy shit. "Imaginary sexism," my ass.


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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 11:02:32 am »
Religions usually have teachings about the social order, which includes gender. The traditional Abrahamic religions often aren't so positive about women, and modern pagan religions can be reactionary to the patriarchal views of dominant traditions. Religions like Wicca, and some of its derivatives to a greater extreme, like Dianic witchcraft, put significant emphasis on the power of femininity. However, Wicca was conceived before contemporary feminism, so while it gives great honour to women and the feminine divine, it's still quite clear that men and women are different and have different roles.

Reconstructionist pagan religions draw from ancient cultures, and although women served in temples as priestesses, usually for female deities, women and men had their own unique roles in society, and this was often legitimized through how the culture saw its deities. Female deities ruling over feminine functions, and male gods having influence over male spheres, although there were exceptions.

I wonder if feminist ideologies play a role in people's religions, and in what way. In our modern age where it's cool for the kids to be gender-queer and believe that their gender is whatever they feel like that day, the differences of the sexes aren't valued very highly. Feminism often plays into the worldview of patriarchy, seeing anything traditionally associated with women, such as motherhood, emotional sensitivity, and nurturing, as degrading and less valuable than traditional masculine characteristics like being assertive, ambitious, and career-money-oriented. It's seen as empowering for women to take on men's roles, but women's roles are still made out to be degrading, so men often don't take them on. I think it's good that many ancient goddesses embody powerful femininity in its own right, although many pagans belong to the extreme left where cis-heteronormativity is evil, and what passes for "feminism" today just erodes the value of motherhood, beauty, the order of the household, etc.

Hmmm. See, theoretically you and I are broadly in agreement; in that I myself see traditional differentiation between the two sexes to be useful and ideally, if not preserved by some force, at least not entirely done away with. I'm also deeply critical of intersectionality for a variety of reasons, and of the relationship between the intersectional idea and modern social/political culture.

But.

I'm sceptical of your broader assertions. It reads to me as if your 'opponents' might be less ubiquitous than you think, and that maybe you're just focusing on a loud and unpleasant minority of feminists which happens to be very loud.
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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 05:44:30 pm »
I don't support them and don't agree with anything politicians like that say, but I can relate to people who are frustrated by the left calling everyone a sexist homophobe white supremacist if they aren't a woman or minority, or a woman who doesn't make the choices they think they should.

Quote
I agree with equality of the sexes, but feminism has become more about man-hating, mostly led by lesbians who want to be men. It encourages women to be single and not to care about men, so women of this generation aren't happy. My evidence for this is anecdotal, just to clarify.

*** MOD HAT ON ***
And you get another warning and strike today. This one for making some ridiculously over broad claims about the left and feminists. I'm well-known for hating PC-ness taken to the extreme, but what you are describing isn't the norm, it's only found in the extremist branches of social justice and feminism. This post makes you sound like a troll. I'm gagging you for a week in the hope that you will rethink your behavior before we have to ban you for being rude and annoying.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 05:49:56 pm by RandallS »
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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 07:36:37 pm »
I agree with equality of the sexes, but feminism has become more about man-hating, mostly led by lesbians who want to be men.

Ignoring the rest of this because it's not worth it, but I'm going to dissect this a bit.

The idea that feminism is led by "lesbians who want to be men" is a toxic idea brimming with a combination of misogyny, lesbophobia, and transmasculine erasure. The fact that most women these days support access for women to the same social opportunities as men has nothing to do with wanting to be men, but rather with challenging the idea that certain practices, careers, and opportunities should be exclusively reserved for men.

The claim that there is a powerful cadre of lesbians who want to be men leading the feminist movement is rooted in the idea that the only thing that could prompt a female-assigned person to explore traditionally "masculine" areas in life is a secret awareness of the fundamental truth of reality that Men Are Better. This basic idea--that "male" and "female" are the two essential immutable poles of the world, and male is the superior one--informs all sexism and transphobia.

In reality, the existence of numerous groups of people (feminists who continue to identify as women as well as queer and trans people of many stripes) disproves this worldview. There are people assigned male at birth who, despite the supposed inherent and unalterable superiority of that status, happily go to great lengths to change that assignment to better suit their identity. There are people assigned female at birth who love womanhood and femaleness and do not consider it inferior to maleness, but nevertheless pursue a male identification for themselves. There are people of many genders, male and female and mixes of both and other categories entirely, who support equal rights and treatment for all genders for reasons that have nothing to do with dissatisfaction with femaleness and idealization of maleness.
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Re: Religion and Feminism
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 04:25:39 pm »
The idea that feminism is led by "lesbians who want to be men" is a toxic idea brimming with a combination of misogyny, lesbophobia, and transmasculine erasure.

Just want to add a point you didn't cover, that it's also a very old idea - it was a common anti-feminist claim when I was a baby feminist in the '70s, and I've run across it in my reading about first-wave feminism and the opposition it faced. So it has nothing whatsoever to do with 'what feminism has become', or even about opposition to 'what feminism has become'; it's just same old same old objection to equality.

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