Raven Symbolism (not even sure where this belongs)

[Wanderer894]

Someone who runs an FB group I belong to posed this query today. 

"Question for the hive mind, since I can't find the answer using the usual search methods: What is the symbolic meaning behind images of ravens with bodies pointed left but heads facing right/behind them? Is there a specific reason they're often depicted that way? Thanks!"

This isn't something I really thought about before, and couldn't turn up an answer during my own search. No one else in the group seemed to know anything. So I thought maybe someone at TC might have some idea.

[Sefiru]

"Question for the hive mind, since I can't find the answer using the usual search methods: What is the symbolic meaning behind images of ravens with bodies pointed left but heads facing right/behind them? Is there a specific reason they're often depicted that way? Thanks!"

It might just be a composition thing, to make it easier to fit the image into a square or round space (otherwise you've got a long beak sticking out of one side).

[Altair]

It might just be a composition thing, to make it easier to fit the image into a square or round space (otherwise you've got a long beak sticking out of one side).

What Sefiru said. It's why so many of John James Audubon's famed bird paintings have them in such weird positions. He was just trying to fit them on the page.

Speaking of ravens, I saw a pair while taking a bunch of kids on an afterschool birdwalk in the Bronx. I'd known they were resident in the neighborhood because I'd heard them in previous weeks, but this was the first time I'd had visual confirmation. Their numbers have been steadily increasing in this region, but I still get a thrill every time I see one within the confines of NYC.

[MeadowRae]

What Sefiru said. It's why so many of John James Audubon's famed bird paintings have them in such weird positions. He was just trying to fit them on the page.

Speaking of ravens, I saw a pair while taking a bunch of kids on an afterschool birdwalk in the Bronx. I'd known they were resident in the neighborhood because I'd heard them in previous weeks, but this was the first time I'd had visual confirmation. Their numbers have been steadily increasing in this region, but I still get a thrill every time I see one within the confines of NYC.

I have noticed more in my area, too! There's a really old fellow that flies over our porch when I'm home. I think he's checking us out to see if we have food. Sometimes I leave stale bread or leftovers for them.

[Owl]

I have noticed more in my area, too! There's a really old fellow that flies over our porch when I'm home. I think he's checking us out to see if we have food. Sometimes I leave stale bread or leftovers for them.

We have an older raven show up on a regular basis - we seem to be on his circuit. He has trained my husband to give him a can of cat food or sardines when he shows up.


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[Altair]

There's a really old fellow that flies over our porch when I'm home.

and

We have an older raven show up on a regular basis

How are you guys aging your ravens? I've never seen or heard of anything that would let one determine how old a raven is. What am I missing?

[Owl]

and

How are you guys aging your ravens? I've never seen or heard of anything that would let one determine how old a raven is. What am I missing?

According to my husband, the beaks go gray as they age. 

[CoyoteFeathers]

According to my husband, the beaks go gray as they age.

Not sure if that's true or not, but here's a guy with a pretty pale beak!

I know that you can tell whether they a fledgling by the color of their eyes (blue for juvenile as is in many animals, brown/black for older) and the inside of their mouths (they start pink, then turn black).

[CoyoteFeathers]

Someone who runs an FB group I belong to posed this query today. 

"Question for the hive mind, since I can't find the answer using the usual search methods: What is the symbolic meaning behind images of ravens with bodies pointed left but heads facing right/behind them? Is there a specific reason they're often depicted that way? Thanks!"

This isn't something I really thought about before, and couldn't turn up an answer during my own search. No one else in the group seemed to know anything. So I thought maybe someone at TC might have some idea.

As an artist, I think this may just be more about composition than symbolism. We might be able to ascribe some kind of symbolism to it after the fact, but I think that the silhouette of a bird with its body facing one way and the body the opposite is just more interesting than everything going the same way. It creates sort of an avian "contrapposto," contrapposto in figure drawing being an asymmetrical but more aesthetically pleasing and dynamic posing of the body with hips tilted one way and shoulders the opposite- which also looks more natural than someone standing straight.

Then again, it may be more interesting because it looks as if the raven is watching out for or observing something. Odin's ravens Huginn and Muninn bring news to him from the rest of the world. They're also known as creators and/or tricksters in a number of Native American mythologies, so the positioning may be more of a "watching over" or even a mischievous stance. However, I haven't seen Native American depictions of the bird that look that way- for the most part (again, from my experience) Pacific Northwest versions of it show it front-facing with its wings spread and head turned either right or left, or just from a side view.


(Image by Israel Shotridge, who is of Tlingit heritage).

Edit: In a quick Google search (by no means in-depth) I don't see an contemporary art- paintings, carvings, or metalwork- of Huginn and Muninn in that pose either. I found this neat little fetish though.

[Altair]

Not sure if that's true or not, but here's a guy with a pretty pale beak!

That might also be lighting. I've noticed that in many birds with black beaks, the beaks are highly reflective, so depending on how the light hits them, they sometimes look silvery.

I'll see if I can dig up anything on changes in beak color in aging corvids.

[Altair]

"Question for the hive mind, since I can't find the answer using the usual search methods: What is the symbolic meaning behind images of ravens with bodies pointed left but heads facing right/behind them? Is there a specific reason they're often depicted that way? Thanks!"

Hanging this here just because. Everyone in this thread seems to have a good grasp of the bird, but in case anyone less familiar with it wanders in, this may prove helpful. It's based as much on personal experience in the field as on field marks widely acknowledged in the birding literature.

How To Tell a Raven from a Crow
(A brief guide to the genus Corvus in eastern North America)

1—The easiest way, IF they’re both side by side, is by size. A Common Raven (Corvus corax) is nearly a third bigger than a crow—it’s a big bird, about the same size as a red-tailed hawk!--so there’s no mistaking them.

2—Otherwise, you can tell them apart easily by voice. The familiar “caw!” of a crow is completely different from the typical deep, throaty, horse croak of a raven: a sort of “quork”.

But if they’re not side by side or vocalizing, then it’s the subtleties…

3—Shape: Ravens have longer, tapering wings and a longer, wedge-shaped tail (compared to a crow’s blunter, fan-shaped tail); ravens have a huge, heavy beak (a real schnozz, like a “Roman nose”) compared to a crow’s thinner, more delicate bill. The raven’s beak and tail combine to give it head and tail projection in flight, so that it looks like a flying cross. You may also notice the prominent shaggy throat feathers on a raven, which are absent from crows.

There's a useful graphic here.

4—Flight: Ravens will sometimes soar, like a hawk—cruising around on outstretched wings for long periods without flapping. Crows never do; they’ll glide for at most 3-5 seconds before they throw in some rowing wingbeats.

5—Numbers: Crows are much more social than ravens, sometimes gathering in huge flocks; you’ll usually see ravens singly or in pairs. BTW, in eastern North America, crows are *much* more common than ravens, unless you’re in the far north or at high altitude. (Apparently they’re absent from most of the South.) But ravens have spread dramatically in the northeastern states in recent years.

A final note: In the East, there are actually TWO different species of crow (ravens aside): the American Crow (Corvus brachyrhynchos, the “common” crow, most abundant) and the Fish Crow (Corvus ossifragus, found at coastlines and some rivers, where American Crows may also occur; for example, here in NYC, we have both). Visually, they’re indistinguishable; the only way to tell them apart is by voice. So if they’re not saying anything, you’re screwed.

[Owl]

That might also be lighting. I've noticed that in many birds with black beaks, the beaks are highly reflective, so depending on how the light hits them, they sometimes look silvery.

I'll see if I can dig up anything on changes in beak color in aging corvids.

I will ask my husband how he knows this is an age indicator.  But I know it isn’t just shine - he gets within a few feet of the bird when it sits on the hood of our ‘79 pickup.


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[Altair]

he gets within a few feet of the bird when it sits on the hood of our ‘79 pickup.

Now I'm just freakin' jealous!

[Waldhexe]

Then again, it may be more interesting because it looks as if the raven is watching out for or observing something. Odin's ravens Huginn and Muninn bring news to him from the rest of the world.

If I should ever try drawing them, I would definitly make them look into different directions symbolizing one looking into the past and one into the future.

They're also known as creators and/or tricksters in a number of Native American mythologies, so the positioning may be more of a "watching over" or even a mischievous stance.

It's really fascinating how Corvidae are spread over the whole world and appear in different mythologies.

[Waldhexe]

Now I'm just freakin' jealous!

Me too, here in Germany I've never seen a wild raven. I've seen carrion crows, hooded crows, rooks, jackdaws, magpies and eurasian jays.

The whole family of corvidaw is really fascinating...I love to watch their behaviour when I wait for the train or when I see them in the trees and roofs around my flat.