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Author Topic: On Truth In Advertising  (Read 352 times)

ehbowen

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On Truth In Advertising
« on: October 22, 2018, 01:29:49 am »
From another thread:

To amplify: In situations such as this, I believe that the greater part of the fault for violation of the conscience should be laid at the feet of those who market their products without making it clear as to what they contain. Now, obviously, the actual ingredient was in fine print on the label...but if I picked up a jar of peanuts and started munching, I would expect them to be vegetarian as well. I really get torqued about companies which practically require you to have a degree in food science, industrial engineering, or law before you can understand what it is that they really are (or are NOT) selling.

You're not going to find two persons regularly participating on this board or in any venue in real life for that matter who are more directly polar opposites in most areas than EnderDragonFire and myself. But he's just been through a full-blown crisis of conscience which was precipitated by the assumption...reasonable, IMHO...that a jar of peanuts was vegetarian. Not so; it contained gelatin...an animal product. Yes, it was on the label in very fine print. The questions in my mind are a) was that reasonable, considering the underlying assumption that "peanuts are just peanuts"; b) would it have been on the label at all were it not required to be there by regulations; and c) (and the reason it's here under "Miscellaneous Religious" rather than one of the more secular boards) What do you think that God...or your gods, or Fate, or karma, or whatever you look to as a source of help...should do about it?

The Scope of the Problem: A few vignettes which illustrate how pervasive this is, at least IMO:
  • New England Clam Chowder: Which is, of course, traditionally made with cream or milk. I used to purchase the Campbell's brand, until one day I read the fine print on the label and couldn't find a single recognizable dairy product listed therein. Maybe there's something of dairy origin, but as I reference in my quote above you'd have to have a background in food science to figure it out. I thought perhaps it had something to do with shelf life...until I dipped into my hurricane supply MREs and there was a retort pouch of NECC intended for soldiers in the field with cream and butter listed prominently in the ingredients. It had a design shelf life of seven years. Now I buy the Progresso brand, which has at least a smattering of dairy...or I make my own.
  • Coca-Cola: The Nectar Of The Gods, IMHO. Or at least it used to be up until about 1984 or so. In that year they made a shift from using real sugar to "High Fructose Corn Concentrate." I tasted the difference immediately...I was famous (infamous?) when I worked at McDonald's at age 16 for being able to tell from taste alone when the postmix machine was off calibration by five percent. Nowadays Coca-Cola is branding their soda fountains with, "Original Taste!" I beg to differ, and I fully intend to file suit if and when I have access to a friendly and honest court.
[There's more but I'm out of time...past midnight and have to be at work at 2:00 am.]

Look, I'm really not wanting to turn this into a world of lawyers (We're too close to that already!). I get that sometimes vegetables taste better to most folks if they're flavored with beef broth or a bit of bacon. Cracker Barrel, a restaurant I frequent, has a notice on its printed menus that some of their side items (listed specifically, but I don't remember them now and it's not on their online menu...wonder why?) are flavored with meat and are not strictly vegetarian. I don't have a problem with that. But at the same time I think that it's incumbent to make that known to folks. And also, ingredient labels are too often a grab bag...I've seen labels which say "*may* contain" seven different types of vegetable oil, including peanut. What happens if you're potentially allergic to one of them? And if you've tried an experimental taste from one batch in the past, had no problem, and think you're OK with the product...and then with the next batch you hit the jackpot? What kind of a multitude of sins are covered under the umbrella of, "Natural flavorings?"

I'm currently working a temporary contract position at a plant which was originally built in 1913 to build Model Ts for Henry Ford. It's a death watch; we're winding it down. Production is already complete and we just have to get everything out the doors. For me, it's just a two-month lifeline but for some of the employees which have been here 30 years and more it's heartbreaking. You see, after WWII wrapped up General Foods bought this plant and re-purposed it into the definitive center for processing coffee for consumer consumption. Roasted, instant, decaf...you name it, along with Uncle Ben's rice and Kool-aid and others which I don't even know about, I'm sure. At over a million square feet it was the largest such enterprise under one roof on this planet. "Good to the Last Drop," read the neon sign atop the decaffeinating tower. The long-time employees swear that the products they turned out were the best in the world. Then the financiers took over.

In 1985 General Foods was bought out by Philip Morris, the cigarette people. In 1990 they purchased Kraft as well and re-branded the company under that name... According to the old-timers, that's when the quality began to go down. They started buying the cheapest beans and otherwise cutting corners. Still, there was some investment and improvement...General Foods had developed a decaffeination process for Sanka which used steam and carbon dioxide instead of the cheaper methyl chloride process which left a metallic taste behind in the finished product. The boiler I'm currently running was added in the late '90s.

But a new generation of financial people was taking over at the top. I was going to recount the different mergers, spinoffs, divestitures, and others but it would take too long. Read Wikipedia if you need some shut-eye. The bottom line is that the managers decided that they didn't want to be in the business of actually producing products any more. The most profitable part of the process was slapping the Kraft label on to something actually produced by the lowest bidder and jacking up the price. So that's all that they would do. The production facilities, including this one, were spun off and outsourced. Methyl chloride is cheaper than steam and high pressure CO2? Live with the aftertaste! And the new owners, being run by financial types themselves, didn't invest a dime in the property above what they actually had to. So, after ten years under two different outsourced managements, this plant has been run completely into the ground. Better to tear it down and build condos, don'cha know. I'm sure someone in China can roast coffee cheaper....

So, with that all said and done...and that's just a microcosm of what's happening all over this world where the love of money has been a root of all kinds of evil...what needs to be done about it? Well, as most of you already know and the others can find out with a short search of my posting history, I have the hots for my God's youngest daughter and I'm inclined to believe the feeling is mutual. But I have been wondering why it's taken (nearly) twenty-five years now for a second date? Well, I think that this falls under the "rope enough to hang yourself" department.

I've posted on my "Timelines" ideas before. But one corollary of my idea is the notion that, when there is a "split" in events, personalities can choose one, or the other, or even both as long as their personality is able to bear the strain of the "split" between them. So I do believe that my Girlfriend and her Family want to be active in this world...and that the corollary to that is that they will bring righteous and in many cases vindictive judgment to address injustice. Well, those who are on the receiving end of that judgment may well not want it and be doing everything in their power to run and hide. But, as long as my own personality can take the strain of waiting...and I haven't reached my limit yet...I stay right in there with them.

At some point I believe that my enemy will run out of delaying tactics and my Girlfriend and her Family will be here ready to make up for lost time. When that happens and the first sentences are passed upon the financial types who benefited from that "root of all kinds of evil", I'm certain that they'll appeal..."We didn't know!" "Oh, is that the case?" I believe my God will say. "Let's just set the clock back 25 years and see what you do then." My own thought is that they will prefer the past 25 years as we've all experienced it to 25 years under the justice of my God. So, split it in half and otherwise slice and dice it...my own thought is that "Planck Time" is the distance between the various timelines when the enemy finally throws in the towel. And every choice which these people made to love money and mistreat workers and cheat customers and otherwise do evil over that time will stand as a witness against them. As Jesus said, "There will be weeping and howling and gnashing of teeth." Or, as John recorded in the Revelation, these people will be crying out to the mountains, "Fall on us!"

Anyhow, that's my own personal take on what's in store. Do you have any ideas along these lines from your own background and traditions? Maybe Somebody up there is willing to listen for suggestions...?
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Hariti

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Re: On Truth In Advertising
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2018, 02:47:38 am »
You're not going to find two persons regularly participating on this board or in any venue in real life for that matter who are more directly polar opposites in most areas than EnderDragonFire and myself.

Very true, Eric! I wouldn't have it any other way though, disagreement fosters discussion and debate after all, and that's is the purpose of this forum. I think it's generally good to be exposed to alternate points of view in life anyway, it makes one think about why they believe what they believe, and it's just as likely to reinforce your convictions as it is to weaken them (if not even more likely).
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Hariti

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Re: On Truth In Advertising
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2018, 03:05:18 am »
Not so; it contained gelatin...an animal product. Yes, it was on the label in very fine print. The questions in my mind are

a) was that reasonable, considering the underlying assumption that "peanuts are just peanuts";

I don't think so. Transparency makes people more likely to buy your product, not less so! Most people in the USA aren't vegetarians, so it's not like knowing that it has animal products in it would have cost them sales.

Even if most people were vegetarians, once they did find out the geletin was in them (as I did) they would not be buying them again! There's really no benefit to making that information obscure and unclear.

I would actually argue that it doesn't make sense to put gelatin in peanuts anyway. From a purely business standpoint, you want to make products that more people will buy, and adding in products that a chunk of the market objects to that serves no purpose, is only hurting your own profit.

Some products understandably need gelatin and other animal products to actually have the right taste and texture, but that's not the case for dry roasted peanuts! I frankly have no idea what it was even doing in there; they tasted, looked, and smelled identical to the off-brand peanuts I usually eat, and those are vegan.

If you can make a product without adding additives that aren't normally part of the recipe, you should do so!

b) would it have been on the label at all were it not required to be there by regulations; and

Good god no! Have you read Upton Sinclair's the jungle? It's a work of fiction, granted, but when President Theodore Roosevelt read it, he felt compelled to investigate the meat industry, to see if it was as bad as the book made it seem. The conclusion reached by the investigators was that it was actually -worse- than the book made it seem to be!

That was the reason the FDA was implemented: people were selling rotten meat, infected meat, rat meat, meat mixed with dirt and sawdust, and all manner of other potentially deadly products.

Market capitalism works best when there are at minimum somerules in place. Businessmen can be honest on their own, of course, but they can also be dishonest, and if nobody is looking over their shoulder, many of them will. The late 19th century food and drug market was full of outright deceptive and oftentimes dangerous products.

c) (and the reason it's here under "Miscellaneous Religious" rather than one of the more secular boards)
What do you think that God...or your gods, or Fate, or karma, or whatever you look to as a source of help...should do about it?

I think that the divine places great value on free will, and as a result doesn't like to step in and force humans to behave themselves. However, I do think that we are currently in a dark age, a Kali Yuga, and that our society is morally decaying, and that eventually God will have to take direct action against humanity. I doubt that it will be anytime soon, however, and I fear that things will get worse before they get better.

It's not that God is apathetic, it's that he wants us to actually be good, not just to behave good because we are being forced at the end of a sword. I also think that there are greater evils than humanity, and that the Gods and Demigods are quite preoccupied with fighting those forces and trying to keep them from meddling on Earth and corrupting and tormenting humanity. So, while my God(s) would be happy if humans were better, I don't think it's feasible for them to come down and right our every mistake at this point in time.


"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Hariti

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Re: On Truth In Advertising
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2018, 03:09:05 am »
    [li$i]Coca-Cola: The Nectar Of The Gods, IMHO. Or at least it used to be up until about 1984 or so. In that year they made a shift from using real sugar to "High Fructose Corn Concentrate." I tasted the difference immediately...I was famous (infamous?) when I worked at McDonald's at age 16 for being able to tell from taste alone when the postmix machine was off calibration by five percent. Nowadays Coca-Cola is branding their soda fountains with, "Original Taste!" I beg to differ, and I fully intend to file suit if and when I have access to a friendly and honest court.[/li][/list]

    Yuck. Corn sugar. Some people swear that it doesn't taste any different, but I beg to differ! It's just... horrid...

    If I'm going to drink a soda, it's going to be an Ale-8-One (a local brand), a Jones Soda, a Moxie, or an imported soda from Latin America. Those all use real cane sugar as their sweeter.
    "The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

    Hariti

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #4 on: October 22, 2018, 03:18:42 am »
    What kind of a multitude of sins are covered under the umbrella of, "Natural flavorings?"

    Quite literally anything that's not A) Illegal to put in food B) Made in a lab, or C) A common allergen.

    You can, and people do, call pork based products Natural Flavoring, which is why looking for the kosher or halal mark on the package is imperative. If it's not been certified by a third party organization, many observant Jews and Muslims won't eat it because they can't be sure that there's not unclean food hiding in the flavoring.

    (There marks are also useful for vegetarians; if it's kosher dairy, then you know the natural flavor is not meat based, with exception of fish, and since fish is a common allergen, it would be labeled).

    You can even put beaver anal extract in your food, and hide it under natural flavor! Or whale vomit! Castoreum and Ambergris, respectively, and both are real additives that full under this vague catchall.
    "The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #5 on: October 22, 2018, 03:22:11 am »
    Yuck. Corn sugar. Some people swear that it doesn't taste any different, but I beg to differ! It's just... horrid...

    If I'm going to drink a soda, it's going to be an Ale-8-One (a local brand), a Jones Soda, a Moxie, or an imported soda from Latin America. Those all use real cane sugar as their sweeter.

    When I was in the Navy, after four years or so of suffering under the HFCC dreck, they loaded aboard the ship a couple of pallets of Coca-Cola which had been canned in Hawaii. At the time real sugar was still a cash crop in Hawaii, and HFCC had to be shipped over from the mainland...so it was cheaper for Coca-Cola to use real sugar for what they canned there. I thought I had tasted heaven...quite literally.
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    Hariti

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #6 on: October 22, 2018, 03:31:51 am »
    So, while my God(s) would be happy if humans were better, I don't think it's feasible for them to come down and right our every mistake at this point in time.

    Though that time will come, I should be clear! Right now, the Gods are having a back and forth with the forces of evil, but it's gonna get to the point where Shiva and Vishnu can't take the crap anymore. No more parleys, no more waiting, no more slaps on the wrist.

    When the Kalki avatar descends from the heavens with his flaming sword, astride his white horse, he's going for the Demons first, particularly the demon Kali, the lord of misery, and he's cutting him down (NOT the be confused with the Goddess Kālī! She'll be there, for sure, but she'll be one of the ones making demonic heads roll. They have the same name, but they're not the same person!) and after that, he's going to set the world of men to right. There will be justice, there will be judgement, and there will also be forgiveness and atonement.

    Nobody gets left behind, but nobody gets in free!

    Some people are going to need some serious corrective discipline first. Those who profit from sewing pain and suffering will be foremost among the ones who get the stick before they get their reward. Even the Demons might get a chance to mend their ways, depending on who you ask, but you can be sure that they'll pay for their crimes.
    "The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #7 on: October 22, 2018, 03:34:00 am »
    Though that time will come, I should be clear! Right now, the Gods are having a back and forth with the forces of evil, but it's gonna get to the point where Shiva and Vishnu can't take the crap anymore. No more parleys, no more waiting, no more slaps on the wrist.

    When the Kalki avatar descends from the heavens with his flaming sword, astride his white horse, he's going for the Demons first, particularly the demon Kali, the lord of misery, and he's cutting him down (NOT the be confused with the Goddess Kālī! She'll be there, for sure, but she'll be one of the ones making demonic heads roll. They have the same name, but they're not the same person!) and after that, he's going to set the world of men to right. There will be justice, there will be judgement, and there will also be forgiveness and atonement.

    Nobody gets left behind, but nobody gets in free!

    Some people are going to need some serious corrective discipline first. Those who profit from sewing pain and suffering will be foremost among the ones who get the stick before they get their reward. Even the Demons might get a chance to mend their ways, depending on who you ask, but you can be sure that they'll pay for their crimes.

    It strikes me that there may be some way to find common cause between your pantheon and mine.
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2018, 03:41:12 am »
    Good god no! Have you read Upton Sinclair's the jungle? It's a work of fiction, granted, but when President Theodore Roosevelt read it, he felt compelled to investigate the meat industry, to see if it was as bad as the book made it seem. The conclusion reached by the investigators was that it was actually -worse- than the book made it seem to be!

    That was the reason the FDA was implemented: people were selling rotten meat, infected meat, rat meat, meat mixed with dirt and sawdust, and all manner of other potentially deadly products.

    Market capitalism works best when there are at minimum somerules in place. Businessmen can be honest on their own, of course, but they can also be dishonest, and if nobody is looking over their shoulder, many of them will. The late 19th century food and drug market was full of outright deceptive and oftentimes dangerous products.

    This goes deep into speculative theology territory, but I get a strong feeling that my God made a big push to End The Game in the early years of the 20th century and that WWI and related happenings were an attempted "breakaway" from that sequence of events. In this theory the FDA and other successful reforms of the era are "echoes" of what was happening in that timeline in order to stem and reverse the rot. And they were effective for a time and still provide an overall positive influence today...but it's fading. Time for a reboot and refresh, IMHO.
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    Hariti

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 04:04:32 am »
    It strikes me that there may be some way to find common cause between your pantheon and mine.

    I've been meaning to start a thread for my own UPG/SPG for a while, and you've got me thinking that now might be a good time to do that!

    You'll probably find the notion unlikely, but I have a strong suspicion that Kalki, the final Avatar of Vishnu, and the Messiah of Juedo-christian theology, are actually the same individual. An individual who may or may not be the person same person as Jesus/Christ. (My views on Jesus and Christ are complicated, and lean toward Nestorianism - as I need to elaborate elsewhere!)

    I'm hardly the first Hindu, or Christian for that matter, to speculate as such. You can find threads all over the internet discussing the similarities between the two, ranging from birth-dates to choice mount and weapon.

    We should talk about this further.
    "The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #10 on: October 22, 2018, 04:15:47 am »
    You'll probably find the notion unlikely, but I have a strong suspicion that Kalki, the final Avatar of Vishnu, and the Messiah of Juedo-christian theology, are actually the same individual. An individual who may or may not be the person same person as Jesus/Christ. (My views on Jesus and Christ are complicated, and lean toward Nestorianism - as I need to elaborate elsewhere!)

    Good topic, but my own UPG on that specific matter differs from yours. I think that my enemy counterfeits personalities regularly...false Christs and such...and that this specific instance may well fall into the category of one of those counterfeits. It's a "good" copy...say 95%+...but not the original.

    I've mentioned before that I think it entirely possible that the personalities of my Godhead are present and acting in the sphere of the deities you know, but my own sense is that they are doing so in the background and not in any kind of a leading role. Incognito, if you were. If they were to step up, they would be quite clear about who they are and what they stand for. Truth In Advertising, you know.
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 04:18:45 am »
    Quite literally anything that's not A) Illegal to put in food B) Made in a lab, or C) A common allergen.

    You can, and people do, call pork based products Natural Flavoring, which is why looking for the kosher or halal mark on the package is imperative. If it's not been certified by a third party organization, many observant Jews and Muslims won't eat it because they can't be sure that there's not unclean food hiding in the flavoring.

    (There marks are also useful for vegetarians; if it's kosher dairy, then you know the natural flavor is not meat based, with exception of fish, and since fish is a common allergen, it would be labeled).

    You can even put beaver anal extract in your food, and hide it under natural flavor! Or whale vomit! Castoreum and Ambergris, respectively, and both are real additives that full under this vague catchall.

    Is it possible to hit "Like" and say "Yuck!" at the same time?
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    ehbowen

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #12 on: October 22, 2018, 10:03:33 am »
    [There's more but I'm out of time...past midnight and have to be at work at 2:00 am.]

    Another one which really frosts me: Paper products, specifically paper towels and toilet paper. When I first started paying attention to what was stocked in the grocery store (late '70s), a standard roll of toilet paper had 600 sheets. Over the years I noticed that every single time they advertised, "Now, even softer!" it meant that they were shorting the roll and fluffing it up to sell you air instead. Eventually it got so ridiculous that they started advertising "double rolls!" and "triple rolls!"...which still held less than a single standard roll from 40 years ago. Now, they're cutting back on the width of the TP rolls as well. I've snarkily opined that before too much longer they'll be selling TP in rolls one inch wide...and if you find one which is two inches wide it'll be advertised as a double roll!

    Paper towels are just as bad. I generally buy Brawny, but they play the "double roll" game too and I'm sick of it. My last previous batch of paper towels had on the package, "6 Double Rolls = 11 regular rolls!" My current package states, "6 Double Rolls = 12 regular rolls!" So, the current package should have a full (regular) roll's worth more paper towels than the previous package, right? No; in point of fact it contained less product than the previous package.

    So, fraud as a business model. Is it any wonder that I'm asking for the Hammer Of God to fall? And quickly?
    --------Eric H. Bowen
    Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

    Sefiru

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #13 on: October 22, 2018, 07:25:06 pm »
    C) A common allergen.

    I have occasional problems with this - it's only a mild allergy, but I have no idea what causes it because it's one of the things they're allowed not to list. (Common in flavored potato chips, but not plain ones; once, bottled salad dressing, and once a freezie. WTF?) Which is one reason I tend towards 'whole foods' eating.

    Quote
    (There marks are also useful for vegetarians; if it's kosher dairy, then you know the natural flavor is not meat based, with exception of fish, and since fish is a common allergen, it would be labeled).

    I've also heard of someone with a serious milk allergy using kosher marks the opposite way.

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    You can even put beaver anal extract in your food, and hide it under natural flavor! Or whale vomit!

    Oh, come on; neither one of those is as gross as fungus-infested congealed animal secretions (aka blue cheese). There's a lot of grossness to be found in food. (Though, come to think of it, is castoreum acceptable to vegetarians? I don't know if it's harvested without killing the beaver.)

    Hariti

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    Re: On Truth In Advertising
    « Reply #14 on: October 22, 2018, 10:13:06 pm »
    Oh, come on; neither one of those is as gross as fungus-infested congealed animal secretions (aka blue cheese). There's a lot of grossness to be found in food. (Though, come to think of it, is castoreum acceptable to vegetarians? I don't know if it's harvested without killing the beaver.)

    I think it's normally extracted from dead beavers? I'm not inclined to do research into the process of obtaining beaver butt juice, however, so I could be wrong.
    "The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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