collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual  (Read 4002 times)

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:26:48 pm »
Recently I discovered that I have OCD and it's made me pretty curious about the influences on my spirituality. What's interesting about OCD is a) it may be a throwback survival trait (i.e.  constantly checking treeline for predators) and b) it may have been the driving force behind religious ritual.

A paper from Emory University's department of anthropology, The Disease of Ritual, comments on how an indigenous man that compulsively washes his hands in meticulously set jars of a certain color, while chanting a repetitive charm and touching his ear six times, can either be seen as a OCDer or as a tribal priest, and then goes on to ask the question of whether cultural normatives developed through ritual and OCD, and if OCDers are actually hyper-normal.

Anyway. As a personal example, I have this weird ritual where my kid's blankets and pillows must be facing right side up. Its as if leaving them facing right side down is a jinx and fixing that deflects the influence of some abstract imposing force. I can't leave it unfixed. Like, if I don't care enough to fix their blankets properly then something bad will happen, so fixing them is a ward against disaster. Its a completely organic OCD superstition but it reminds me of folk wisdom rituals: sewing and yarn must be properly cared for else Perchta/Holle will curse you with bad fortune. An idol must face in the proper direction, a chant must be said in the right tone, an offering should be given weekly, etc.

The similarity of OCD rituals and religious rituals are striking. And the differences between OCD ritual and religious ritual are slim. The biggest difference being that religious ritual can be used to seek a pleasurable experience from forces whereas OCD ritual seeks to avoid and find relief from chaotic forces. Another difference is that OCDers don't necessarily see their rituals as spiritual, instead finding them "crazy", whereas religious ritual is infused with profound meaning. This may be due to modern understandings of compulsory ritual, though. There is a connection between the mainstreaming of psychology and the  trend of religious ritual/experience going private.

I do have several little rituals I perform that I personally connect to an abstract idea of universal influence or fate rather than just crazy urges, but I'd really be interested in discussing other ways to dissect the meaning of ritual, putting profound meaning into them, and just exploring the connection between OCD and religious ritual.  I've found one forum, OCDtribe, for pagans, but it only has three posts, and other searches reveal isolated forum discussions that we could probably have here ourselves.

Sort of related: I came across a sparkly and tacky spirit worker page that offered the advice of backtracking thoughts of the deceased to determine actual communication. If you could trace your thought process back and see what triggered the thought of the dead then it was more than likely your own sense of them rather than sensing them. On the otherhand, if you couldn't pinpoint why thoughts of them had sprung to mind then you most likely sensed the movement of spirit. This helped me immensely in dealing with the grief I've been feeling, even though 99% of the time I came to realize it was my own sense of my friend. But the process of it helped me achieve a steady footing, and I guess what I'm looking for is a similar process for OCD and spirituality: can this ritual be infused with meaning, what sort of rituals are helpful rather than destructive, etc.

Really, though, there aren't any guidelines to the discussion. Its just one I'd like to have and would appreciate any information and questions members would be willing to share with one another.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 10:46:42 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108
Recently I discovered that I have OCD and it's made me pretty curious about the influences on my spirituality. What's interesting about OCD is a) it may be a throwback survival trait (i.e.  constantly checking treeline for predators) and b) it may have been the driving force behind religious ritual.
Interesting! I used to be afraid of tile grout. On a tiled floor, I wouldn't allow myself to step anywhere but on the center of the tile. I don't know where that came from, it wasn't survival-- but the tic was there. Funny if I'd found a group of people to rationalize my fear as honoring some deity of boundaries, and we'd try to teach our kids this whole philosophy and cosmology behind tile grout.

I also used to be afraid of pulling shirts over my head in order to wear them, but I'm not so sure if that's OCD so much as an overactive imagination. I felt convinced that the world I entered through the torso hole, would not be the same world I found when I reached the neckhole. (And I was very very young, I hadn't read about chaos theory physics, or solipsism, or any of that.) It's like I felt compelled to witness the world as much as I could... although, I didn't generally have a problem with blinking my eyes. I read somewhere else someone going on about the metaphysics of that very same thing, how many missing people are like cases of spontaneous human combustion-- they put on a T-shirt, lost the cosmological lottery, and blipped into non-existence.

And I thought a lot of disdain at this whole pearl covering that grain of fear, even as I could understand where it came from... I just didn't like where it went.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:48:08 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Maps

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 703
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 11:14:30 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108
Recently I discovered that I have OCD and it's made me pretty curious about the influences on my spirituality. What's interesting about OCD is a) it may be a throwback survival trait (i.e.  constantly checking treeline for predators) and b) it may have been the driving force behind religious ritual.

A paper from Emory University's department of anthropology, The Disease of Ritual, comments on how an indigenous man that compulsively washes his hands in meticulously set jars of a certain color, while chanting a repetitive charm and touching his ear six times, can either be seen as a OCDer or as a tribal priest, and then goes on to ask the question of whether cultural normatives developed through ritual and OCD, and if OCDers are actually hyper-normal.

Anyway. As a personal example, I have this weird ritual where my kid's blankets and pillows must be facing right side up. Its as if leaving them facing right side down is a jinx and fixing that deflects the influence of some abstract imposing force. I can't leave it unfixed. Like, if I don't care enough to fix their blankets properly then something bad will happen, so fixing them is a ward against disaster. Its a completely organic OCD superstition but it reminds me of folk wisdom rituals: sewing and yarn must be properly cared for else Perchta/Holle will curse you with bad fortune. An idol must face in the proper direction, a chant must be said in the right tone, an offering should be given weekly, etc.

The similarity of OCD rituals and religious rituals are striking. And the differences between OCD ritual and religious ritual are slim. The biggest difference being that religious ritual can be used to seek a pleasurable experience from forces whereas OCD ritual seeks to avoid and find relief from chaotic forces. Another difference is that OCDers don't necessarily see their rituals as spiritual, instead finding them "crazy", whereas religious ritual is infused with profound meaning. This may be due to modern understandings of compulsory ritual, though. There is a connection between the mainstreaming of psychology and the  trend of religious ritual/experience going private.

I do have several little rituals I perform that I personally connect to an abstract idea of universal influence or fate rather than just crazy urges, but I'd really be interested in discussing other ways to dissect the meaning of ritual, putting profound meaning into them, and just exploring the connection between OCD and religious ritual.  I've found one forum, OCDtribe, for pagans, but it only has three posts, and other searches reveal isolated forum discussions that we could probably have here ourselves.

Sort of related: I came across a sparkly and tacky spirit worker page that offered the advice of backtracking thoughts of the deceased to determine actual communication. If you could trace your thought process back and see what triggered the thought of the dead then it was more than likely your own sense of them rather than sensing them. On the otherhand, if you couldn't pinpoint why thoughts of them had sprung to mind then you most likely sensed the movement of spirit. This helped me immensely in dealing with the grief I've been feeling, even though 99% of the time I came to realize it was my own sense of my friend. But the process of it helped me achieve a steady footing, and I guess what I'm looking for is a similar process for OCD and spirituality: can this ritual be infused with meaning, what sort of rituals are helpful rather than destructive, etc.

Really, though, there aren't any guidelines to the discussion. Its just one I'd like to have and would appreciate any information and questions members would be willing to share with one another.

 
I used to think I was OCD, but I think it's more that I just have small phobias and anxiety triggers that get dealt with by avoidance, though that's not ritualistic in nature at all. Like, woo yeah trypophobia up the wazoo! And loud noises, and some music, and needles... so I don't think it's that relevant. Though I do enjoy ritual for its own sake sometimes.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 11:50:03 pm »
Quote from: Maps;81114
I used to think I was OCD, but I think it's more that I just have small phobias and anxiety triggers that get dealt with by avoidance, though that's not ritualistic in nature at all. Like, woo yeah trypophobia up the wazoo! And loud noises, and some music, and needles... so I don't think it's that relevant. Though I do enjoy ritual for its own sake sometimes.

Yeah, there's a difference between OCD and irrational phobias. I thought OCD was about orderliness and cleanliness, when that's more a manifestation of dealing with the obsessive thoughts. Like a fear of saying something inappropriate; instead of telling the front desk "I want to drop this off", saying instead "I want to murder your children." You don't want to murderer anyone, but the thought pops into your mind that you could say that and then you obsess over it. For days. Why would I even think I might say that? What's wrong with me? etc, etc. And that's when tics or rituals develop: to distract yourself from those thoughts that you know are irrational but that you can't let go of.

But then there are also the rituals that develop to help you influence ...fate, I guess. Like the girl who was convinced her mother would die if she didn't get to the bus stop on time. She had this irrational anxiety that somehow her mother was going to die and she developed a ritual to have some control. Or the man who needs three books on a table or his father will die. But whats interesting to me from a spiritual standpoint is the expression of a reciprocal relationship with the universe in these rituals: I fix the blankets on the bed so my kids will be safe, or, I sacrifice a cow so we won't die in the winter, or, I scan the trees every five minutes so a bear won't eat my offspring. The first is definitely irrational (blankets aren't connected to safety but winter could really kill), but see the similarity to religious thinking (and survival instincts)? Both the OCDer and the priest have a concept that something  is aware of their ideas and actions of proper behavior.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying all ritual or religion is linked to OCD. But I am saying (from research)  that there is a possible link.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 11:55:03 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Asch

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 883
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 05:36:45 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81118
Yeah, there's a difference between OCD and irrational phobias. I thought OCD was about orderliness and cleanliness, when that's more a manifestation of dealing with the obsessive thoughts. Like a fear of saying something inappropriate; instead of telling the front desk "I want to drop this off", saying instead "I want to murder your children." You don't want to murderer anyone, but the thought pops into your mind that you could say that and then you obsess over it. For days. Why would I even think I might say that? What's wrong with me? etc, etc. And that's when tics or rituals develop: to distract yourself from those thoughts that you know are irrational but that you can't let go of.

But then there are also the rituals that develop to help you influence ...fate, I guess. Like the girl who was convinced her mother would die if she didn't get to the bus stop on time. She had this irrational anxiety that somehow her mother was going to die and she developed a ritual to have some control. Or the man who needs three books on a table or his father will die. But whats interesting to me from a spiritual standpoint is the expression of a reciprocal relationship with the universe in these rituals: I fix the blankets on the bed so my kids will be safe, or, I sacrifice a cow so we won't die in the winter, or, I scan the trees every five minutes so a bear won't eat my offspring. The first is definitely irrational (blankets aren't connected to safety but winter could really kill), but see the similarity to religious thinking (and survival instincts)? Both the OCDer and the priest have a concept that something  is aware of their ideas and actions of proper behavior.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying all ritual or religion is linked to OCD. But I am saying (from research)  that there is a possible link.

 
Hmm interesting stuff. I had some OCD-like behaviors when I was younger and during some mental turmoil in puberty up through my early twenties. I've mostly learned to suppress or live with them so I don't consider myself OCD.

What I am curious about is whether this is a case of correlation or causation. There are certainly correlations between the seemingly nonsensical tics, routines, and compulsive behavior of some OCD sufferers and some, possibly many, religious rituals but is there causation?

It seems like a fairly chicken and egg argument and thus prone to the same difficulties.

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1982
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 07:24:32 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108
The similarity of OCD rituals and religious rituals are striking. And the differences between OCD ritual and religious ritual are slim. The biggest difference being that religious ritual can be used to seek a pleasurable experience from forces whereas OCD ritual seeks to avoid and find relief from chaotic forces. Another difference is that OCDers don't necessarily see their rituals as spiritual, instead finding them "crazy", whereas religious ritual is infused with profound meaning. This may be due to modern understandings of compulsory ritual, though. There is a connection between the mainstreaming of psychology and the  trend of religious ritual/experience going private.

I do have several little rituals I perform that I personally connect to an abstract idea of universal influence or fate rather than just crazy urges, but I'd really be interested in discussing other ways to dissect the meaning of ritual, putting profound meaning into them, and just exploring the connection between OCD and religious ritual.  I've found one forum, OCDtribe, for pagans, but it only has three posts, and other searches reveal isolated forum discussions that we could probably have here ourselves.

This is really interesting to me, because although I don't have OCD, I do have a lot of obsessive thinking as a result of my bipolar disorder and/or autistic spectrum stuff (it's usually hard to say what's what). And while I don't particularly find relief in everyday rituals of the OCD kind, I do find it in religious ritual. It's a bit like symbolically ordering my internal universe.

I suppose I could worry about what's spirituality and what's mental health stuff, but that would be more about my need to put things in boxes than anything else. Of course, it's important to know the difference between, say, delusion and divine inspiration, or between intrusive thoughts and deity communication - but beyond that, anything else that links my mental health and spirituality I just find interesting.

And useful, because it reminds me that when I'm having meltdowns or have had the same thought for the past 24 hours, it might be time to go and light the candles and make the offerings. Daily meditation and regularly honouring the gods is really good for my mental health - although I've heard that's not the case for everyone, with some people finding that meditation aggravates their condition, for example. Trying to work out what helps and what hinders is a difficult but useful exercise, for me.
 
I like the idea that this might all be related to survival instincts and needs. I've always played with the 'chicken and egg' concept in relation to deity and our human needs - did we invent the gods because we needed them for evolutionary and survival reasons, or did we develop those needs (at least in part) because the gods were there? As a polytheist, I think religion and ritual are about honouring gods who actually exist, and who existed before people and their survival needs did. But it's always an interesting concept to play with, sociologically.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:26:06 am by Naomi J »
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10189
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 258
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 08:20:24 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108
A paper from Emory University's department of anthropology, The Disease of Ritual, comments on how an indigenous man that compulsively washes his hands in meticulously set jars of a certain color, while chanting a repetitive charm and touching his ear six times, can either be seen as a OCDer or as a tribal priest, and then goes on to ask the question of whether cultural normatives developed through ritual and OCD, and if OCDers are actually hyper-normal.

Here's a link to the paper (warning: PDF), from the above it looks worth reading:

http://www.marial.emory.edu/pdfs/ObsessiveCompulsive.pdf
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1982
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 09:50:39 am »
Quote from: RandallS;81178
Here's a link to the paper (warning: PDF), from the above it looks worth reading:

http://www.marial.emory.edu/pdfs/ObsessiveCompulsive.pdf


Did people see this one when it was in the news recently? It's about the healing and symbolic ordering power of ritual and repetition, as well as how people judge their effectiveness. The research looked at magical rituals in Brazil. The full paper is here, but you'll only be able to access it through a library, alas. The article summarizes it well though.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 10:35:00 am »
Quote from: RandallS;81178
Here's a link to the paper (warning: PDF), from the above it looks worth reading:

http://www.marial.emory.edu/pdfs/ObsessiveCompulsive.pdf

Thanks for linking that. Here's the earlier article that that paper references (also pdf) :

  Is obsessive-compulsive disorder a pathology of the human disposition to perform socially meaningful rituals

Edit: linking directly to the download didn't work, but it is a free access pdf that should show on google search.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:37:56 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 01:31:10 pm »
Quote from: Asch;81153
Hmm interesting stuff. I had some OCD-like behaviors when I was younger and during some mental turmoil in puberty up through my early twenties. I've mostly learned to suppress or live with them so I don't consider myself OCD.

What I am curious about is whether this is a case of correlation or causation. There are certainly correlations between the seemingly nonsensical tics, routines, and compulsive behavior of some OCD sufferers and some, possibly many, religious rituals but is there causation?

It seems like a fairly chicken and egg argument and thus prone to the same difficulties.

 
The gist of it seems to be that humans develop social rituals that dictate what ethics and values a group should have for optimal survival. Supernatural agencies become part of a social group when our minds think "off-line", when we conceive of things not in our immediate physical reality, and then rituals are developed for that as well. So, a certain religion will have taboo numbers, colors, walk a bull in a circle three times, and only touch a tool with the left hand to maintain a proper balance and ward against contamination, catastrophe, ill-luck in much the same way that an OCDer will have taboo colors, numbers, walk out a door three times etc to ward against those same things. The OCD is self-ritualizing--what Freud called personal cults. If social rituals aren't providing the affirmations and sense of controllable interactions with physical and supernatural agencies, then private ones arise. I assume if you get more than one OCDer with similar ritual manifestations together then you'd have a tribal cult which would say "this is just how things are done".

I think the paper I brought up first had mentioned athletes being OCD ritualistic in the way that they have set superstitions before games and how if those rituals aren't met precisely then their game is off and they're mentally anxious and unbalanced. Which is perfectly acceptable in that context. But what caused the ritual? Did they notice a pattern of good games when the criteria was met? Do they just feel more zen? And isn't that what religion seeks to provide? A fortuante result and feeling of security?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 01:44:02 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;81




And useful, because it reminds me that when I'm having meltdowns or have had the same thought for the past 24 hours, it might be time to go and light the candles and make the offerings. Daily meditation and regularly honouring the gods is really good for my mental health - although I've heard that's not the case for everyone, with some people finding that meditation aggravates their condition, for example. Trying to work out what helps and what hinders is a difficult but useful exercise, for me.


See, that's why I brought up backtracking. But then I worry that finding subtle triggers for obsessive thinking will make me compensate with ritual. And that's not my goal. I don't think most practitioners or scholars think that polytheism requires the actual details of ritual, but that rituals and traditions were more about tribal identity/solidarity. (Thanksgiving unites us as Americans with a common history and purpose.) That religious ritual and OCD ritual have common templates is more about human needs than god-given directions.


 
Quote
I like the idea that this might all be related to survival instincts and needs. I've always played with the 'chicken and egg' concept in relation to deity and our human needs - did we invent the gods because we needed them for evolutionary and survival reasons, or did we develop those needs (at least in part) because the gods were there? As a polytheist, I think religion and ritual are about honouring gods who actually exist, and who existed before people and their survival needs did. But it's always an interesting concept to play with, sociologically.


I think the survival aspect is interesting as well as how humanity is defined by its needs and goals...because who gave us our humanity?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 315
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 12:27:40 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108

Really, though, there aren't any guidelines to the discussion. Its just one I'd like to have and would appreciate any information and questions members would be willing to share with one another.

 
I don't see it as creative of religious ritual, but it could certainly be a reinforcing element.  If someone learns the rituals one way, their ocd could emphasize the need for exact duplication, especially when they, in turn, do the teaching.  And religion is much more susceptible to symbolic reasonings.

eg. When I was tending register, when our bills got restocked from the safe, this new money had to go underneath the bills already in the till.  Objectively, it didn't matter where it went.  Subjectively, my (ignorably weak) ocd didn't like that the new bills were going out into the world before the old money.  When I trained cashiers, passing that compulsion on just wouldn't make sense to them.  However, if it was a religious event, that reasoning would be perfectly fine.  I could even justify further saying it was symbolic of the business not getting stale under the fresh surface, which would reinforce the religious aspect.

Another aspect of ocd in religion.  I receive communication from the divine in the form of a peculiar incident of ocd.  It's subtly different from my regular compulsions, so I can tell the difference if I pay attention.

I had managed to amass a collection of random animal figures, mostly by being a magpie.  "ooh, shiny"  I decided to display them all as a sort of totem collection.  When placing the elephant, I got the compulsion "no, this doesn't go here but there, it's not just any animal, it's Ganesha."
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 12:39:12 am »
Quote from: drekfletch;85166
I don't see it as creative of religious ritual, but it could certainly be a reinforcing element.  If someone learns the rituals one way, their ocd could emphasize the need for exact duplication, especially when they, in turn, do the teaching.  And religion is much more susceptible to symbolic reasonings.


 
I like what you said about the compulsions feeling different.

Here's an interesting blog post about OCD and religion. The essay he mentions, “Circling the Blanket around God,” was actually a really interesting read and I'd recommend that as well. (Free pdf)

The Sandy Hook incident has made my OCD flare up. I'm terrified about sending my kids to school tomorrow and getting sucked into obsessive, ritualistic thinking. :(
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 315
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 01:49:26 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;85168
I like what you said about the compulsions feeling different.

 
I've studied what they feel like to me, so as to try and distinguish internal personal desires from external input.  Also contemplated has been where my perfectionism takes over from ocd, or vice verse.  Because they're not the same thing.
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: OCD Ritual and Religious Ritual
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 05:43:42 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;81108
I do have several little rituals I perform that I personally connect to an abstract idea of universal influence or fate rather than just crazy urges, but I'd really be interested in discussing other ways to dissect the meaning of ritual, putting profound meaning into them, and just exploring the connection between OCD and religious ritual.  I've found one forum, OCDtribe, for pagans, but it only has three posts, and other searches reveal isolated forum discussions that we could probably have here ourselves.


I'm a little late to the party, but I would definitely be interested in having this discussion, particularly about how it is relevant to us as pagans dealing with OCD. I talk about the subject on my blog pretty regularly, and how it crops up specifically for me. I do still struggle a lot with the intersection between magical thinking in the psychological sense and actual magic.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
1280 Views
Last post July 11, 2015, 06:43:40 pm
by Faemon
13 Replies
2504 Views
Last post February 23, 2016, 01:04:44 pm
by StagTracker
15 Replies
1322 Views
Last post March 21, 2016, 05:55:25 pm
by tothegoldenlady
4 Replies
1097 Views
Last post April 22, 2019, 04:43:25 am
by Zlote Jablko
12 Replies
1117 Views
Last post April 26, 2019, 10:57:38 am
by Jainarayan

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 26
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall