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Author Topic: Jedi, Sith or what?  (Read 1284 times)

Sefiru

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Jedi, Sith or what?
« on: May 04, 2017, 06:53:48 pm »
May the 4th be with you! Here's a Star Wars thread.

The question: are the Light Side and Dark Side the only ways of approaching the Force?

They're depicted as religions, or at least philosophies, but we don't get a lot of detail about the beliefs and practices of either the Jedi or the Sith.

The Jedi seem similar to forms of monastic Buddhism, in a lot of ways.
The Sith remind me of LaVeyan Satanism.

I highly doubt that every Force user in the universe falls neatly into one of these two boxes. What might some other options be? (I'm trying to imagine what a Shinto-esque Force faction would be like. More fun at parties than either of the above, probably.)

Darkhawk

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2017, 08:24:32 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205837
The question: are the Light Side and Dark Side the only ways of approaching the Force?

 
Not even in canon!

The Obi-Wan era Jedi code would be:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

The Sith code, on the other hand:

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain Strength.
Through Strength I gain Power.
Through Power I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.

Some material suggests that the original Jedi code was something like (and here is a lovely example of reconstructionist problem and lost in translation, isn't there?):

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

There are also a number of organisations and individuals referred to as "Grey Jedi", who deal with both aspects, some organisations and individuals who think that the light/dark distinction is ballocks, and so on.  Oh!  And there are Dark-aligned Force users who aren't Sith, too; Sith was originally a species, and that became a particular philosophical school heavily influenced by that species' outlook....
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

sevensons

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2017, 09:16:15 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205837
The Jedi seem similar to forms of monastic Buddhism, in a lot of ways.
The Sith remind me of LaVeyan Satanism..)

 
I will be free from badness that the dark forces try to attach to.

victoreia

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 05:29:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205839
Some material suggests that the original Jedi code was something like (and here is a lovely example of reconstructionist problem and lost in translation, isn't there?):

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.


This strikes me as a very Taoist viewpoint. This is always the way I've viewed the Jedi code.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 05:30:59 pm by victoreia »
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MadZealot

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 10:44:52 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205839
There are also a number of organisations and individuals referred to as "Grey Jedi", who deal with both aspects, some organisations and individuals who think that the light/dark distinction is ballocks, and so on.  Oh!  And there are Dark-aligned Force users who aren't Sith, too; Sith was originally a species, and that became a particular philosophical school heavily influenced by that species' outlook....


Aaaah, geekery.  I love it.  Reminds me of the all the hours I logged on KOTOR.
 
To add to DH's examples:

There's Ahsoka Tano, former Jedi (and no longer a fan) who shows up in Rebels with a pair of white blades.
And that super badass monk guy in Rogue One, who was apparently sensitive to the Force, but it's never made clear if his martial badassery was bolstered by Force use.
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sevensons

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 03:27:13 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;205857
Aaaah, geekery.  I love it.  Reminds me of the all the hours I logged on KOTOR.
 
To add to DH's examples:

There's Ahsoka Tano, former Jedi (and no longer a fan) who shows up in Rebels with a pair of white blades.
And that super badass monk guy in Rogue One, who was apparently sensitive to the Force, but it's never made clear if his martial badassery was bolstered by Force use.

 
There is no one bader than  Count Dooku.

Jack

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 11:55:13 pm »
Quote from: sevensons;205859
There is no one bader than  Count Dooku.
That's because he's played by Christopher Lee. It doesn't matter what the script is at that point. XD

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Sefiru

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2017, 06:04:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205839

There are also a number of organisations and individuals referred to as "Grey Jedi", who deal with both aspects, some organisations and individuals who think that the light/dark distinction is ballocks, and so on.  Oh!  And there are Dark-aligned Force users who aren't Sith, too; Sith was originally a species, and that became a particular philosophical school heavily influenced by that species' outlook....


Hmm, where do those turn up? I'm not as familiar with the nooks and crannies of the Expanded Universe as I could be.

And do  you think they were modeled after real-world philosophies, or made up out of whole cloth?

Darkhawk

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2017, 09:42:18 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205910
Hmm, where do those turn up? I'm not as familiar with the nooks and crannies of the Expanded Universe as I could be.

Honestly I don't know specifically where it came from - I learned about them from a theistic Satanist who was having a rant about the EU and people who thought the Jedi were all pureness and good. ;)

However:  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_(species) may help.

Quote
And do  you think they were modeled after real-world philosophies, or made up out of whole cloth?

I believe there's some Taoist influence on the original series of movies and my suspicion is people riffed on it from there.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 11:38:30 pm by SunflowerP »
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MadZealot

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 11:23:35 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205910
Hmm, where do those turn up? I'm not as familiar with the nooks and crannies of the Expanded Universe as I could be.

Dark Jedi and the history of the Sith-as-species-first both popped up in the video game Knights of the Old Republic.  They probably featured in EU stories first (as did several tidbits in the game) but, since Knights leaned heavily on WotC's d20 RPG ruleset, you'd probably find a bunch of background stuff in game sourcebooks.  (There's a new SW RPG out now, under a different publisher.)  For years I've wanted a copy of the Knights Campaign Guide, just for the artwork and lore.  But, even 10 years after publication, used copies go for over $100.  :(  Must be damn good.

EDIT: Just thought of something.  In the movies they say there are only ever 2 Sith at a time.  In KOTOR 1 you have to face off against a damn Sith fleet, capital ships and all.  Definitely not all of the Sith priesthood, but it shows how they were a military power.  And in the sequel you have to face off against several Sith; thankfully, though, not all at once.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 11:28:17 pm by MadZealot »
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SunflowerP

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 11:48:51 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205910
Hmm, where do those turn up? I'm not as familiar with the nooks and crannies of the Expanded Universe as I could be.

And do  you think they were modeled after real-world philosophies, or made up out of whole cloth?

 
Not an answer to your questions, but relevant to them and to the thread, a thing I chanced across earlier today: This is what “balancing the Force” looks like.

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 06:13:20 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;205915

EDIT: Just thought of something.  In the movies they say there are only ever 2 Sith at a time.  In KOTOR 1 you have to face off against a damn Sith fleet, capital ships and all.  Definitely not all of the Sith priesthood, but it shows how they were a military power.  And in the sequel you have to face off against several Sith; thankfully, though, not all at once.


It possibly also shows that the Jedi don't know much about the Sith.

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 06:19:19 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;205916
Not an answer to your questions, but relevant to them and to the thread, a thing I chanced across earlier today: This is what “balancing the Force” looks like.

Sunflower


That article makes some good points.

It seems to me that in the movies Jedi are considered "good" more because of the source of their powers, than what they do with them; likewise Sith and evil. I'm sure there's a philosophical term for this concept, but I can't think of it at the moment.

Speaking of Star Wars articles, there's this one about how the the first 6 movies form a ring composition. (Warning: long article is long)

MadZealot

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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 06:42:36 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205946
It possibly also shows that the Jedi don't know much about the Sith.

Nawp.  The "rule of two" was put in place by Darth Bane 1000 years before the films.  The Old Republic era took place 20,000 years before that.
(That's according to the former EU, now "Legends."  Not sure if it's part of the Mouse's "canon," tho.)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 06:43:29 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Jedi, Sith or what?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 09:45:21 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;205947
Speaking of Star Wars articles, there's this one about how the the first 6 movies form a ring composition. (Warning: long article is long)

 
Ooh, this looks very interesting. I'm not necessarily convinced the Lucas movies are as intricate as Lucas thinks (I've long since figured out that he is not as sophisticated as he believes himself to be), but I'm quite willing to buy that they're more intricate than most folks realize. (Also, I have a peeve about people whose dislike of Phantom Menace appears to be subconsciously driven by its failure to restore to them a 12-year-old's sensawunda; it appears that that itch will get at least a bit of scratching.)

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