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Author Topic: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?  (Read 1899 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 11:52:12 am »
Quote from: Gilbride;77191
It is my personal opinion- and the opinion of Ramakrishna, Khan and others- that those intellectual differences are not essential because what is being talked about here is beyond the intellect.

 
"Appeal to authority" is a fallacy for a reason.
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Gilbride

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 01:13:42 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;77202
"Appeal to authority" is a fallacy for a reason.


Yes, and if I was trying to prove something rather than just saying what my personal opinion is, that would be relevant.

Darkhawk

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 01:37:24 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;77209
Yes, and if I was trying to prove something rather than just saying what my personal opinion is, that would be relevant.

 
Your personal opinion appears to boil down to "People who disagree with these authorities are wrong."
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Gilbride

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 01:46:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;77210
Your personal opinion appears to boil down to "People who disagree with these authorities are wrong."


I really have no idea where you're getting that from. I believe what I believe, yes, but who doesn't? I disagree with the original poster's theology. He disagrees with mine. Not a big deal.

Darkhawk

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 02:07:29 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;77211
I really have no idea where you're getting that from. I believe what I believe, yes, but who doesn't? I disagree with the original poster's theology. He disagrees with mine. Not a big deal.

 
It's actually kind of a big deal when you are saying that mystical practices that differ from your own are either a) not really mystical practices or b) really are just like what you're talking about even if the people actually doing them aren't aware of it.

Basically: if your opinions come across as attempts to invalidate other people's practices, other people may be annoyed.
as the water grinds the stone
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Gilbride

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 02:30:40 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;77213
Basically: if your opinions come across as attempts to invalidate other people's practices, other people may be annoyed.

 
Except that I wasn't doing any such thing, so if other people insist on being annoyed there's not much I can do about it. Seriously, you can define the word "mysticism" any way you want, I don't care. I use the word in a way that makes sense to me, and I assume you do the same. I don't know what your practices are and I wasn't commenting on them positively, negatively or at all. I was saying that the thing the original poster finds so distasteful is generally referred to as "mysticism" and that some version of that viewpoint can be found in mystical theologies all over the world, which is simply true. You can find some variation of what he was talking about in just about every major mystical tradition I'm aware of. If you believe something totally different but you also call it mysticism, then that's fine, but it's not what I was talking about.

Grimnir

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 05:54:20 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;77192
According to that logic, there can be no such things as separate cells in your body because they are all part of the greater self that is you. In reality, your cells each have an individual existence yet are simultaneously part of a greater whole.

 
Not at all, we as individuals are part of a greater whole here on Earth - our families, our social circles, our nations, our race, etc.. The idea of a separate self that is part of a greater whole is not unknown. But we are separate selves, we do not have to lose that self to be a part of it. It may not be noticeable on the macro, but on the micro it is.
Kind Regards, Raven
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel! - Fate goes ever as she shall!

Grimnir

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 06:02:27 pm »
Quote from: Maps;77194
This screams of nuage stuff more than "what pagans are likely to think".

 
As I said though, it has been my experience of pagans that I have met, many in the flesh, a fair few that I've joined in ritual. Others, online. I do not base my observations on the 'nuage stuff' I see, but on the people I know.

Still, I could be wrong and that 'nuage stuff' may actually be right all along! Who's to say that it's not a valid path in paganism? Not mine, but certainly not automatically invalid because of that :) and in fact my experience shows there are many more believe things more closely associated with that stuff than there are people like me.
Kind Regards, Raven
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel! - Fate goes ever as she shall!

Grimnir

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2012, 06:05:53 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;77170
I wouldn't say I see the many gods as aspect of one god or being, I see them rather as manifestations of an all-pervading divine power or force that is immanent in the natural universe.

 
Sounds to me like the same horse, different jockey. All gods, one god; all gods, one divine power?
Kind Regards, Raven
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel! - Fate goes ever as she shall!

Gilbride

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2012, 06:31:36 pm »
Quote from: Grimnir;77243
Not mine, but certainly not automatically invalid because of that


Quite right!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 07:47:56 pm by SunflowerP »

Grimnir

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2012, 06:38:29 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;77248
Quite right!

 
I believe there are oh, around 7Bn paths in the world. Every individual sees their path differently, even if they use the same guidebook, their personal perceptions differ. All I can say with any certainty is that my path is right for me.
Kind Regards, Raven
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel! - Fate goes ever as she shall!

Nyktelios

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2012, 06:46:05 pm »
Quote from: Grimnir;77244
Sounds to me like the same horse, different jockey. All gods, one god; all gods, one divine power?


*shrug* Whatever it is, it's what I think.

I consider the divine power to be more of an "all" than a "one", which commonly implies transcendence. I see divinity as the animating spirit of the universe as a whole rather than an external being somewhere out there like a god in a monotheistic tradition.
 
Quote from: Maps;77194
Mesoamerican thought of Central America has it that the gods are both individual personalities and expressions of a greater whole. They're not mutually exclusive.


Exactly. Polytheism and monism go together in many cultures. For example, the gods were aspects of the One in Greek Neoplatonism, ancient Egyptians could view the gods as aspects of a supreme god (although who this god was could vary; it was usually the one with the most political influence, like Ra or Amun, but in some traditions also Hathor), and Hindus have the concept of Brahman. The three main sects of Hinduism each have a different supreme deity (Shiva, Vishnu, or the Goddess/Devi), who are all considered the supreme being and the other gods are aspects of him/her.

Polytheistic also tend to be highly syncretic, identifying foreign gods with their own and incorporating aspects of different traditions with which they come into contact. "Hard" polytheism seems to be a modern invention that is a reaction against the common theology in neo-paganism that "all gods are one god".

When it comes down to it, though, what difference does it make? Whether the gods are each unique or if they are part of a larger whole, it doesn't really matter in terms of practice.

Maps

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2012, 06:48:04 pm »
Quote from: Grimnir;77243
Still, I could be wrong and that 'nuage stuff' may actually be right all along! Who's to say that it's not a valid path in paganism? Not mine, but certainly not automatically invalid because of that :) and in fact my experience shows there are many more believe things more closely associated with that stuff than there are people like me.

Oh I'm not saying that it's illegitimate, but a lot of it has its roots in money-grubbers appropriating cultures and ideas up the wazoo. These folks publish books with skimpy bibliographies, sometimes making up science and twisting the results of studies to suit their needs. And when this stuff gets as popular as it can clearly become, it still isn't illegitimate, but it can and does do damage.

Quote from: Grimnir;77244
Sounds to me like the same horse, different jockey. All gods, one god; all gods, one divine power?

It's actually much more complex than that and lends itself to hard polytheism more than you'd think.

And oop, Carnelian beat me to it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:48:58 pm by Maps »

Gilbride

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2012, 07:32:30 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;77250
Polytheism and monism go together in many cultures.


Yes, polytheistic monism- that's where I'm at.

Quote
The three main sects of Hinduism each have a different supreme deity (Shiva, Vishnu, or the Goddess/Devi), who are all considered the supreme being and the other gods are aspects of him/her.


This is one thing I really enjoy about Hinduism. Each Purana deals with a different god, and each one says "our god created the universe, all other gods are aspects of our god," yet none of them teach that the others are wrong.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 07:48:33 pm by SunflowerP »

SunflowerP

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Re: Individual Gods, Aspects of a greater being, or something else?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2012, 08:07:18 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;77214
Except that I wasn't doing any such thing, so if other people insist on being annoyed there's not much I can do about it.


One thing you could do about it is to be careful in making flat statements like this one:
 
Quote from: Gilbride;77179
That concept in some form is at the core of all forms of mysticism.


I'm not annoyed because I'm "insisting" on being annoyed, I'm annoyed because that flat statement pretty much says that my stuff isn't mysticism because it's not transcendental.  You can say, "I didn't mean it to be interpreted that way," all you like, but it's still what you said.

Even if "this is just my opinion" is interpolated, you're still basically saying that, in your opinion, I'm No True ScotsmanMystic.

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