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Author Topic: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?  (Read 2708 times)

Altair

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Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« on: October 22, 2013, 12:59:04 pm »
As most U.S. Cauldronites probably know, as the Republican self-immolating debacle fondly remembered as the Shutdown/Debt Ceiling Crisis of 2013 was ending, a House of Representatives stenographer lost it, ran to a microphone, and blurted out her wholly inappropriate religious diatribe.

Now her husband is speaking out in her defense:

"She shared with me when she actually stepped up to the podium that she didn't know what she was going to say; that those words that came out were what she prayed 'Lord, I'm your vessel, you speak through me.' So her belief is, and my belief is, is that those words came from God. It's not He coached her, she memorized the words or anything like that. In fact, afterwards, I don't think she even remembered what she said. She was like, 'I was just the vessel that God was speaking through and it wasn't for me to know what I said, it was for who was hearing it.' She was prepared for it and she gave it and as a scribe does. They're all about words and He gave her the words and she recorded the words or spoke the words and she feels her job is done."

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/husband-house-stenographer-say-god-spoke-through-his-wife-house-floor

(Well yeah, her job is done, in that she won't be working in the Capitol ever again.)

I guffawed at the notion that she was 'moved by the Spirit.' But then I thought, rather than dismiss this because she's on the wrong side of the political spectrum from me--or because I think she's crazy--it might be a useful exercise to examine it more dispassionately.

I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Jenett

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 02:26:33 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437

I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?

 
Given that that's one of the modes for Drawing Down, yes. (Both bits.) And on a much more low-key level, I often do the "Lady, let me do your work in the world" as a prayer in my head in certain kinds of conversations - mostly religious, but sometimes also at work, when I'm trying to figure out how to explain something complicated about libraries and then find myself saying or writing in a way that is probably not the way I'd have consciously picked.

That said, I think it's also a bit problematic when it reaches the point of "so deep that the person doing it doesn't remember what they said". Part of explaining is best snagged from the kink community: I think it's a problem to non-consentually include other people in my religious scene.

But the other part is that if I am acting in a professional setting, I am going to need to take responsibility for my words in that setting. If I don't remember what those words *are*, that's a problem. There are also specific things where M'Lady (or other deities I've done a full-blown Draw for) are just not reliably up on modern legal issues or their implications, or other things like that.

Likewise, if I am standing up representing my place of work (or, in this case, as an elected representative), I have an obligation to include some things that may not be my personal choice, or the choice of my Gods, but that still deserve fair representation. (An elected official has an obligation, to my way of thinking, to represent their entire constituency, not just the ones who agree with them. Students in a library instruction session deserve to get all the bits of the library, not just the ones I most care about or M'Lady cares about.)

What makes me think it's a 'real' experience? When I've done it, things coming out of my mouth have been things people needed to hear, but I had *no* idea were an issue.  (A couple of times, for people I knew very little about, so it wasn't just picking up something subconsciously.) Since that's been true for me when I've been at rituals where other people have Drawn Down, I don't have trouble believing that's what happened.

On a lighter level - where I'm in control of what comes out of my fingers or my mouth but M'Lady is pushing me to respond and to put specific content out there - it happens fairly frequently, for values of 'fairly'. If you read my posts here, there's about one every 4-6 weeks where I'm writing what M'Lady indicates needs to be said. I suspect it's generally not obvious (except maybe to a couple of people who know me really well) but they're definitely there. However, you'll notice I don't make a big fuss about it, or even mention that part in the post.

(However, in that case, I also have plenty of chances to proof what I said, and to consciously decide to post it, not just let it loose into the world without filtering.)
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SatAset

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 03:43:14 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437


I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?


I do believe this is possible.  I do write oracles for Aset, mostly in the form of poetry, but some prose too.  

I feel Her presence around me while writing them.  The words are in my head; and they are in Her voice.  And I get kinesthetic or emotional clues if I'm off the mark or not.  

Some Kemetic groups do practice trance possession often called a Saq (Appearance).
I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --SatAset

Altair

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 06:11:54 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;126452
Given that that's one of the modes for Drawing Down, yes. (Both bits.)


Thanks, Jenett, for taking the time to explain this. Do you have any conscious control at all when this happens? Or is the choice limited to "I have chosen to open myself to this," and then what happens happens?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 06:15:13 pm »
Quote from: SatAset;126465

I feel Her presence around me while writing them.  The words are in my head; and they are in Her voice.  And I get kinesthetic or emotional clues if I'm off the mark or not.  


Do you consider the words hers or yours?

Quote

Some Kemetic groups do practice trance possession often called a Saq (Appearance).


Have you ever witnessed this? What did possession entail?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

SatAset

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 07:15:08 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126481
Do you consider the words hers or yours?


I consider them Her words, but channeled through me.  So, I'm the filter.  I do the best I can to relay Her messages to the best of my ability.  


Quote

Have you ever witnessed this? What did possession entail?

 
Not in person.  I've experienced two done online.  There is a person who is possessed, a person attending the deity and another person asking and typing the messages via chat.  

In my first experience of this, I was told by the deity to stop shaking.  (I was shaking at the time).  There is no way someone thousands of miles away could have known that.  And I was alone in my room.  So, yeah.
I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --SatAset

Jenett

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 08:02:01 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126479
Thanks, Jenett, for taking the time to explain this. Do you have any conscious control at all when this happens? Or is the choice limited to "I have chosen to open myself to this," and then what happens happens?

 
For Drawing Down, it's a very conscious process (and I think there are excellent reasons for that.) that involves some degree of advance prep work before ritual, and some specific ritual steps. (and in my training, you learn to build in those deliberate steps precisely so you have some control over the process, and so you have support during and after if it's needed.)

For the 'you should say something about that', I'm much more in control, but opening up for it is not as deliberate a process, partly because I have more nuance in the output. If that nudge happens, I'll end up writing *something*, but it sometimes goes through several edits, or I leave the window open for an hour and go do something else and review it before posting, or whatever.

(It also helps that it's usually solidly in areas where I have expertise anyway: it's usually not random out of the blue stuff, and it tends to be "Talk about this thing here." I may be scratching my head about *why*, but talking about it is a thing I might talk about anyway, if that makes sense, and the nudge is more about "make this comment in this thread, I don't care that you want to do something else right now.")

In general, I think people who are open heads (i.e. prone to this kind of contact) or who become more so have a responsibility to learn to deal with it sensibly in terms of its impact on others. It might take some time to figure out how, but - well, we're back to the "don't involve people in your scene without consent".

In ritual, someone's agreed to be there. In a forum discussion, they've agreed to get some conversation about it. (and there are generally some guidelines about how totally inappropriate stuff gets dealt with.)

In a space where people have to be, and can't escape an overt religious or philosophical message? More complicated. And a lot more problematic.
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Altair

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 10:04:40 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437

I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask


And it is. Thanks to both of you, Jenett and SatAset, for the insights.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RandallS

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 08:11:53 am »
Quote from: Altair;126437
I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?

My patron Goddess, Athena, has spoken through me a few times in the past -- with a specific message for someone else. I know it is happening but have never been able to remember the exact message (although I do remember the jist of it). Note: I have no idea if this is an effect of passing the message along or if it is just my ADHD bit where I fail to remember things that I don't consciously do (like where I set my glasses down if I'm thinking about whatever I'm doing that makes me take them off instead of where I'm putting them).

My voice is different when it happens (or so I've been told) as I don't notice any difference. This has only happened in public once -- at a open Pagan event in the early 1980s where a couple of radical feminist witches made all these comments about how inappropriate is was for Athena to be patron to a male. She told them it she would choose who she choose without any concern what what limits they thought she should have.
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Catherine

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 01:47:21 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437

I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?

 
Yes. Mostly, it's a lot like Jenett describes. I'll get a push to say something, but I have control over what I say and how I say it.

There was one time, years ago, that I delivered a message from tM to another of Her followers. That, was the only time I ever felt like I didn't have control. Words that I would have never said on my own, just started pouring out of mouth. It was weird, to say the least, and I didn't like it very much at all. But, the message really needed to be delivered, I guess. In any case, thankfully, She never did that again.

Altair

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 10:46:12 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;126529
My patron Goddess, Athena, has spoken through me a few times in the past -- with a specific message for someone else. I know it is happening but have never been able to remember the exact message (although I do remember the jist of it). Note: I have no idea if this is an effect of passing the message along or if it is just my ADHD bit where I fail to remember things that I don't consciously do (like where I set my glasses down if I'm thinking about whatever I'm doing that makes me take them off instead of where I'm putting them).

My voice is different when it happens (or so I've been told) as I don't notice any difference. This has only happened in public once -- at a open Pagan event in the early 1980s where a couple of radical feminist witches made all these comments about how inappropriate is was for Athena to be patron to a male. She told them it she would choose who she choose without any concern what what limits they thought she should have.


Catherine's reply raises an interesting question: Did you feel uncomfortable about it when it happened?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RandallS

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 08:01:23 am »
Quote from: Altair;126622
Catherine's reply raises an interesting question: Did you feel uncomfortable about it when it happened?

Not particularly -- at least not that I remember. It hasn't happened in about 10 years now.
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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 09:04:47 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437

I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?

 
I've experienced this, but never in public.  It's mostly been of the "You need to say/do something about this" variety, where I've had a good deal of control over what I actually did and said about it.

There have only been a couple incidences that I can recall where She's taken over the reins and spoken more directly through me. In one case, it was words of comfort to another of Her followers at the end of his life.  In the other case, a friend was making claims that My Lady had spoken to her in a way that was threatening and intimidating.  In both cases, I don't have good recall of the incidents but was told that both my voice and facial expressions were very different than usual.
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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 09:54:35 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437
I figured the Cauldron is a good place to ask: Have you ever experienced a moment when your voice was used by one of your gods? Or your hands, for that matter? What were the circumstances, and what makes you believe deity was at work through you?


My wife did, and said something I really didn't want to hear. Since she doesn't serve the same goddess I do, I chose to interpret it as just being her and not "really" being from Brighid. I got offended, and we had a huge argument. That night Brighid came to me in a dream and said "you need to be more comfortable with what I send you."

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Re: Have You Ever Spoken With the Voice of Your God?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 10:05:51 pm »
Quote from: Altair;126437


 
It happens to me somewhat regularly in chat.  I have awareness, but it's a very strong NEED to say what must be said.

I have never (that I know of, obviously!) lost control or spoken what I did not intend to say.  I HAVE been STOPPED from speaking in the past.

As far as how I know .. it feels different.  I feel surrounded, filled.  I KNOW it's different.

Now, I've felt nudges in places that were non-religion specific, but always places where I could couch things in non-religious language.  The only places I've been pushed to be specific have been around Cauldronites and .. possibly other pagan spaces, though it's not ringing a bell of any right now.

The idea of grabbing a mike at random and giving a diatribe .. even if I WAS pushed to do something like that, I would fight back like crazy, and be VERY angry about being pushed like that.  It feels .. icky.  I can't see it happening, but I also wouldn't be remotely happy with it even being prompted.

especially since it wouldn't be effective, no one's going to listen at a time and place like that, and if no one's listening, what's the point? ;)

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