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Author Topic: Do your pets have religion?  (Read 2937 times)

beachglass

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 02:06:27 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;132164
I lean towards the theory that the Vanir in heathenry are zoomorphic deities. Freyr isn't a man who has a golden boar, he is the great golden boar, much like NA traditions are said to have the Great Bear spirit. There *is* a divide between man and beast and this, to me, explains the divide between the Vanir morals and the Aesir morals. The divide between man and beast is also dramatized in the swan wives motif, or the selkie myths. So, anyway, my point is that I do see my pets and animals as having gods, of being in the image of gods, and my interactions with them are the merging of two cultures and customs.

 
This is really interesting, thank you. I have never thought about this in that way, but it makes sense to me.
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Olivia

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 02:20:46 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;128732
I have cats. The closest they come to religion is, "Our human feeds us, cares for us, provides for us, and even scoops our wastes out of the litterbox. We must be gods."

 
Ha! That is so true. After being a proud cat parent for many years I so get why the Ancient Egyptians treated them like royalty.

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 02:42:10 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;132164
I lean towards the theory that the Vanir in heathenry are zoomorphic deities. Freyr isn't a man who has a golden boar, he is the great golden boar, much like NA traditions are said to have the Great Bear spirit.

 
I have never heard this theory before, though I've known people who associate the Vanir with animal tribes and who even describe them as shapeshifters. Assuming that Gullinbursti is a Vanir in his own right, I could go with that, but I am not sure why that would suggest that Freyr himself is Gullinbursti. Is this based on some experience you've had with Freyr yourself?
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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 03:20:58 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;128717


 
I don't think so, and I think that religion is a conscious decision most animals can't make. Not because they're that much less intelligent than humans, but because animals think in different ways. I don't think it would occur to them.

However, I do think animals can be good with energy work and things and have a demeanour with that that could associate them with a religion or might 'soak up' the somethingorother of a religion- eg a cat with a calming air about it that hangs around a church.

Three of my billion pets are good with energy in different ways, I think, but I haven't worked on learning about it much.

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 03:55:05 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;132164
much like NA traditions are said to have the Great Bear spirit

 
Also I think this is a little simplistic, don't you?
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Juniperberry

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 04:20:21 pm »
Quote
I have never heard this theory before, though I've known people who associate the Vanir with animal tribes and who even describe them as shapeshifters. Assuming that Gullinbursti is a Vanir in his own right, I could go with that, but I am not sure why that would suggest that Freyr himself is Gullinbursti. Is this based on some experience you've had with Freyr yourself?


 I've never been one to mystically experience the gods in the way I think you might mean, but there are times when a piece of information I stumble upon seems to hit me in the spiritual gut and resonates with me on a deeper level. (Not that it doesn't still require further investigation and philosophical experimentation.)

Here are some of my notes on the possibility:

De Vries also discusses the old idea of the “sacred boar” as being a possible form of the god Freyr. 268  According to him, zoomorphic gods of this kind were certainly present among many nations, and the same thing applied to the Germanic religion.

Turville-Petre had suggested that the boar had been worshipped independently of the god; also he suggests that the sacrificed boar represented the god himself, and that people who participated in such sacrifice were absorbing the gods power by eating boar flesh.

First and foremost, uncultured man seems capable of simply worshipping a beast as beast, looking on it as possessed of power, courage, cunning, beyond his own, and animated like a man by a soul which continues to exist after bodily death, powerful as ever for good and harm. 205

Folks Strom sees Freyr being the boar as part of his function of breeding and fertility.

Like Turville-Petre, Ohlmarks understands the boar (Gullinbursti) as being a metastasis of Freyr himself.


I understand that this information doesn't "prove" Freyr is the boar itself, but I'd thought I'd give you an idea of what I'm working from. I also don't assume him to just be a boar like I don't assume him to just be a man. I think he's a complex deity with a role to play and I also tend to think that that role starts with the animal kingdom and its relationship to mankind.

Not that I'm saying any of this is correct, just that I think there's a lot of room for some interesting speculation and theorizing.

Quote
Also I think this is a little simplistic, don't you?


Yes I do. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way at the time to express it anymore delicately. Hopefully the notes above get the intended message across more clearly.
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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2013, 12:07:42 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;132289
Yes I do. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way at the time to express it anymore delicately. Hopefully the notes above get the intended message across more clearly.

 
What they don't clarify is why it'd be useful to bring up NA traditions in the first place. I'm fairly confident that Cauldronites can handle academic references to zoomorphic deities without needing sweeping generalizations about NA traditions to give them a frame of reference.

I find what you're saying about Freyr/Gullinbursti quite interesting, and well-worth discussing, but the reference to 'NA traditions' is liable to detract from having that discussion. Perhaps a retraction would be a good idea?

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 12:20:57 am »
Quote from: beachglass;128717
Do you observe your pets to have any spiritual practices? Do you think it's just a human thing? Or maybe the gulf between human and animal thinking is too wide for us to know?


Tonight (and virtually every night, were I there, which I'm totally NOT...) at my local brewery a line of incredibly adorable pooches (including my own) stood in a line waiting for cookies from one of the wait staff (who they all know have cookies they liberally distribute).  Their heads moved in unison in a manner I can only define as "hope in a somewhat mystical thing which may or may not happen based on previously observable phenomenon".  It's not religion, but it felt at least like proto-religion.

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 12:48:00 am »
Quote from: beachglass;128717

Do you observe your pets to have any spiritual practices?


While I frequently say that my dog thinks she is human, I don't see any spiritual practices in her. However, I do think she has a degree of some sort of empathy, because when I am sick, she is usually stuck to me like glue.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 01:01:47 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;132331
What they don't clarify is why it'd be useful to bring up NA traditions in the first place. I'm fairly confident that Cauldronites can handle academic references to zoomorphic deities without needing sweeping generalizations about NA traditions to give them a frame of reference.

I find what you're saying about Freyr/Gullinbursti quite interesting, and well-worth discussing, but the reference to 'NA traditions' is liable to detract from having that discussion. Perhaps a retraction would be a good idea?

Sunflower

 
It's use is only to myself, as I only really have a simplistic pop culture frame of reference for zoomorphic deities that helps me tie my ideas together. So while I absolutely will retract my statement, I would not be opposed to enhancing the conversation to learning more about other zoomorphic deities, their place in religion, and the cultures they stem from so that I can further my own ideas on spirituality in the animal kingdom and avoid such faux pas in the future. :)
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I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 01:27:05 am »
Quote from: beachglass;128717
My city chorus will be performing Britten's "Rejoice in the Lamb" this season, which is based on a poem Jubilate Agno by Christopher Smart. I've been thinking about the bit where he talks about how his cat Jeoffrey worships God in cat ways:



(You can read the whole section about Jeoffry at http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15798 ; it's actually quite charming.)

Do you observe your pets to have any spiritual practices? Do you think it's just a human thing? Or maybe the gulf between human and animal thinking is too wide for us to know?

Personally I lean toward the latter; I anyways suspect I'm just anthropomorphizing when I try to guess what my cats are thinking. Though my observation suggests that if there is a cat religion, its daily practices consist of 22 hours of deep meditation punctuated by episodes of ecstatic battle dance. And the ritual pushing of objects off the edges of tables. :D

 If they have religion as we would think of it, I'm not certain. Though often consider the state of other animals to be akin to zen in many ways. Not zen as we might understand it, but a sort of zen.
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Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2013, 08:42:42 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;128717
My city chorus will be performing Britten's "Rejoice in the Lamb" this season, which is based on a poem Jubilate Agno by Christopher Smart...

I've sung Rejoice in the Lamb and am now reminded of the piece about the Mouse:

"For the Mouse is a creature of great personal valor.
For, this is a true case: Cat takes female Mouse.  Male Mouse will not disperse but stands Threatening and Daring."

There's nothing like Christopher Smart combined with Britten.

As for animal religion, my cats have given me no inclination to believe they consider anything sacred, other than dinner.
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beachglass

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2013, 12:19:13 am »
Quote from: veggiewolf;132747
I've sung Rejoice in the Lamb and am now reminded of the piece about the Mouse:

"For the Mouse is a creature of great personal valor.
For, this is a true case: Cat takes female Mouse.  Male Mouse will not disperse but stands Threatening and Daring."

 
The Mouse solo didn't grab me until I actually heard our soloist sing it with the organ; she was really fantastic. But my favorite part is the Instruments; it's wicked fun to sing which is a nice break amongst some of the more ... musically idiosyncratic parts?
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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2013, 12:23:24 am »
Quote from: veggiewolf;132747
I've sung Rejoice in the Lamb and am now reminded of the piece about the Mouse:

"For the Mouse is a creature of great personal valor.
For, this is a true case: Cat takes female Mouse.  Male Mouse will not disperse but stands Threatening and Daring."

There's nothing like Christopher Smart combined with Britten.

As for animal religion, my cats have given me no inclination to believe they consider anything sacred, other than dinner.

 
I don't know the song, but I have mice and it's true.

It's offtopic, but if the subject interests you (it interests me), I also can vouch for roosters anecdotally, who have their valiance explained in a lovely book called Home to Roost by Bob Sheasley.

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Re: Do your pets have religion?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 02:02:49 am »
Quote from: veggiewolf;132747

As for animal religion, my cats have given me no inclination to believe they consider anything sacred, other than dinner.

 
THIS!!!! I get yelled at quite vehemently any time I'm late serving dinner. Or breakfast.
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