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Author Topic: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan  (Read 5038 times)

sailor

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2014, 12:17:56 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;147869
It's worth mentioning that, while that issue is extremely important and needs taking into account, we're also seeing the opposite problem.  Stuff is disappearing from the net every day.

The early 90's anti-capitalist movement (which I was heavily involved in) is now seeing increasing academic interest.  I even got interviewed at the start of the year by an earnest undergrad doing a final year case study.

Thing is, a lot of the websites of the time have just disappeared entirely.  Stuff like the Reclaim the Streets website, which was crucial to the British side of the movement.  I don't think we'd even considered that might happen at the time, nor did we think about how future generations might want access to it.

People like the British Library have started trying to archive important websites, but the net is obviously too big for them to do anything but scratch the surface.

So, yes, you should always assume that stuff can stay online forever when talking about privacy concerns etc.  However, you should never assume that you will always have access to something that only exists online.

 
I'm not sure that this is any different than the pre-computer age.

How many small groups have printed a newsletter, and then when the group folds the news letters slowly get throw away by the recipients?  I can't see the National Archives trying to collect the Susie Moonshine Coven newsletter at the time it's being printed; nor even accepting a free copy of such a newsletter for the 3 years it comes out.

An academic who is studying the pagan religious movement might try, well after the fact, try and collect material that happens to still be in existence. Maybe in 2000 there was enough history to make it into an academic field.  In 2014 they get enough money to start an archive.  1 - I don't think they'll want a hard copy of every news letter by every single small group.  2 - They'll subscribe, or if lucky get free copies, of major periodicals.  3 - They'll ask for copies of old material, and since it's old stuff, they'd accept say Anything from the 1970s or 1980s since it's likely to be rare already.

Why do websites vanish?  I'd think the easiest reason is that the people who founded it gave up.  They didn't pay the domain fee. They didn't pay the internet hosting fee.  

While computer storage is cheap, and getting cheaper, somebody is going to have to determine what is important enough to save copies of at the time it's posted unless it lasts long enough (say 20 years online) to be captured as being important in hindsight.

While I agree that you should never assume that you'll have access to something that is online only, I'm not seeing a difference with pre-computer stuff.  

For a counter point I offer the case of Google being sued in Spain about indexing to the electronic archives of a print newspaper. It made it easier to find somebody by name and that they had a run in with unpaid bills or something 25 years ago.  Those papers were always available via microfilm, but nobody had ever bothered to index them by the names of everybody mentioned.

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2014, 12:49:30 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;147863
I'm going to do a naughty and necro this thread because after searching the site it seems this is the one mention of what I'm hoping to find an answer for...but no answer actually appears.

Jenett, I'd like to know more about copyright along the lines of "If I copy X into my BOS, is that ok?" if you have the time to educate me.

Now that I am finally starting to accumulate things that should go in my BOS (cripes, I dislike that term!) I am faced with this problem. For the time being, I am plopping the raw material into Scrivener with a "Sourced from [website or book]" at the top. However, I intend to go back over these things to reword and expand and supplement. Now what?

My hope is to eventually have a nicely footnoted, page numbered, subtitled, and attractive document at the end since that's what is easiest for me to read, digest, and internalize. It makes sense to me to future-proof it with having good attributions where they are needed.

Jabberwocky's got some of it right, but it's a bit more complicated than that. (And also, I note that I am a) not a lawyer, b) mostly familiar with US copyright law - which is relevant to you in the sense that it also applies to US hosted online sites) and c) it looks like Norway includes moral rights as well as economic rights, which is not a distinction made in US law. (I'm looking at this PDF from the norwegian Creative Commons site: it looks like it's a not-great translation, but gives some ideas about terms and issues. That site in general, if you go to the main page looks like it's got some useful stuff for you.)

So, let me back up here. I did end up writing up some of the notes from that class for a blog post last fall, along with a number of links to the excellent Nancy Sims, who is the copyright librarian for the University of Minnesota. (Unlike me, she is also a lawyer. However, she is not anyone's lawyer here.) Obviously, all focused on US uses, but she talks about a bunch of common types of issues. That post is over here.

US Copyright covers a number of different kinds of rights: reproduction, distribution, performance, display, and the right to prepare derivative works. Exactly how these are defined (and more to the point *what* is allowed to people not the copyright holder) is something that can only be determined on a case by case basis.

Fair use is a doctrine that's about a defence of a particular use, not an automatic permission - and because of this, the kinds of things that have been determined to be fair use vary quite widely, depending on specifics of the individual cases, the courts they were heard in, the feelings of the judges about what fair use covers, and so on. (There are cases where a couple of sentences have been ruled as too much, and others where 1000+ words are considered fair use.)

Anyway. Personal use of something - whether that's copying a passage into your Book of Shadows equivalent, or making a copy of an article from a journal for later research, or something like that is generally considered just fine under copyright law: it is part of the research and learning process to have people able to keep the pieces of relevance to their work.

The problem comes if you ever want to *share* that with anyone else.

(And that includes putting it online in most forms: there are some cases where 'sharing it in a password protected space with a limited number of people for a specific time frame - such as the length of a class' might be permissable, but we get into needing to look at the details very carefully, both of each individual work, and of whether the total shared works have an impact when taken together, and the context they're being shared in.)

For example, colleges have gotten into trouble for putting together reading packets that obviate the need for students to buy books, for example, if a substantial number of items in the packet could be found in a particular reader or text book, even if those items came from different sources originally.)

Anyway. Sharing is the tricky part. For sharing, my basic best practice is to ask for permission, or to make sure there's implied permission. (as many Pagan books will actually say somewhere, if they have ritual scripts or whatever: there may be an explicit sentence of "Feel free to use these for your group or rituals, or adapt them as you need." somewhere in the introduction, for example.)

My best practices for including something in my personal notes goes like this:

- Do it as close to the point of learning as possible (if it's something like an oral chant/something used in a ritual) so that I get it down as close to as was used as possible.

- Make note of the person who I got it from, plus (if relevant) whatever other contact info I have for them. (If it's someone I talk to regularly, just the name is fine. If it's a website or an email or whatever, then I stick that in.) If it's a book, I include full title, author, publication date. (I fuss less about publisher, because that's very easy to find if I need it these days.) If it's a website, it's the full URL for where I got it, plus a brief note about author, and I note date accessed, in case the content changes later.

- If there's an easily accessible bio that includes, say, tradition or coven names, I also make note of that - it makes it easier if I want to track someone down later. (this is not as necessary for traditional-book-published authors, but it makes it a lot easier of someone moves websites/etc. to make sure I've got the right person.)

- If they gave information about where *they* got something from, I include that. (This is useful for "This is a chant that's been around the community for 20 years, but I don't know who created it" kinds of things - that lets me know they're not the originator, and that if I want to use it in public, I probably want to at least *attempt* to track that down.)

- If there are any explicit or implicit permissions involved, I make a note of that. (i.e. if something is under a creative commons license, or someone has said "Please share this widely, just keep my name attached' or "I wrote this book to share rituals you can use as you choose" or whatever.)

Some examples might be:
[Learned from Whoever RitualName during Lammas WhateverYear. Mentioned learning in 15 years ago in OtherTraditionName ritual.]

[From URL (accessed Date) - written by Name.]

[Quotation and summary from Title by Author, written Date, on pages X to Y.]

Or I'm currently doing notes for myself from an online course where I will continue to hold the relevant PDFs - my references for that are a summary of the material name, and then a reference to which PDF to go look at (so XXXX - Month 1, [Topic]).  

Later use
If I want to use something from my notes later in a public setting, I then have enough information to figure out if I can get permission (or if they've already given permission for a particular kind of use.)

Use of material (such as reading a poem, singing a hymn, etc.) during a religious service is exempt from copyright restrictions under US Law. (See section 110, 3)) However, other uses - including things like making a copy of the lyrics - get a lot more complicated. There's a nice summary from the UU folks about this over here.

I tend to prefer to use material where people have given permission (because of the 'moral rights' implications, which is not a legal thing in the US legal system, but present in other places, and in general, I don't want to use material in a religious or ritual setting that the creator would have objections to.)

For teaching material, if it's still available, I prefer to point people at the original source. If it's not still available (or not readily available), then I'm more inclined to do the summarise and give credit for the source rather than quote.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 12:53:40 pm by Jenett »
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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 01:26:40 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;147869

So, yes, you should always assume that stuff can stay online forever when talking about privacy concerns etc.  However, you should never assume that you will always have access to something that only exists online.

 
Well, that's an entirely different piece than what I was talking about at that moment.

But to be specific:

You can't guarantee any specific online material will continue to be available indefinitely (but really, this is like books: books, especially from niche publishers, may go out of print, you may not be able to get your hands on a used copy, a number of types of materials do not get widely collected by libraries. And it is *very* like things like, say, print magazines.)

BUT

There are any number of private archives, people who pull screengrabs of various things, etc. that may be floating around. (archive.org is a public source, Google's cache storage is another.) So you also can't guarantee that anything you say online *won't* be snagged or saved or turn up later.

(I say this as someone who currently has two different PDFs of material I screen-grabbed open on my computer for specific reasons, plus who knows how much other stuff archived from email lists/etc.)
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SatAset

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 03:21:42 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;43969

One is a panel discussion on Copyright and Pagans - I suggested it after Elysia Gallo's excellent posts earlier this spring about pirated books (She is a senior acquisitions editor at Llewellyn: she's an awesome human being.) First post here, and second post, responding to an email from the person who'd posted (complete, book-length works) is here.



I know this is a few years late.  How did the panel go?  

I know this may not be an issue for the wider Pagan community, but there is also the translation copyright laws.   I see a lot of material (ancient hymns for instance) quoted online without a source, a citation or even an inkling of permissions granted.  Some of them are of course in public domain, but some aren't.  

Would you touch on that in some future material on this topic?
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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 03:22:52 pm »
Quote from: sailor;147878
While computer storage is cheap, and getting cheaper, somebody is going to have to determine what is important enough to save copies of at the time it's posted unless it lasts long enough (say 20 years online) to be captured as being important in hindsight.

The Internet Archive and the Archive Team would be to differ. Everything is worth saving from their POV.

Sometimes robots.txt keeps them from getting everything, but they happily try.
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Jenett

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2014, 04:03:53 pm »
Quote from: SatAset;147905
I know this is a few years late.  How did the panel go?


Very well, though with a lot of "Wait, I had no idea about that" from the audience, which I'd pretty much expected. (I am having trouble digging up the notes I took at the time, which is not that surprising, really.)

Quote

I know this may not be an issue for the wider Pagan community, but there is also the translation copyright laws.   I see a lot of material (ancient hymns for instance) quoted online without a source, a citation or even an inkling of permissions granted.  Some of them are of course in public domain, but some aren't.  


Translations are a really complicated area, and there are a lot of variables. (There's a thread about translation over here from last fall that may also be of interest.)

- If the original work is within copyright, then making a translation is a derivative work, and is covered under the related copyright laws. (If the original work is ancient, this is not a problem, obviously.)

- If the translation was done as an academic publication, it is far more common for academic publishers to want the copyright rights than popular publishers (where the copyright rights generally remain with the author). This isn't an absolute, but a tendency.

- If the translation was done at the request of a publisher or project, it may fall under the 'work for hire' rules, which mean the copyright is with the person commissioning the work, not the translator.

- As with other works, eventually works generally age into the public domain (if you look at the translations on the Perseus Project, for example, they're almost all old enough to be public domain - which is a problem for some uses.)

Quote

Would you touch on that in some future material on this topic?

 
I do have eventual hopes of writing some of this up more coherently, but I'm also quite certain it's not going to happen in the next couple of months (there's a lot of complex interlinked stuff, and other things in my life get priority for a bit.) And the complexity that I'm not a lawyer, which makes all of this trickier.
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sailor

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2014, 05:17:31 pm »
Quote from: sailor;44026
How about:

If a complete ritual is published in a book, can I use that ritual in a public venue? For example can I use a compete ritual from Buckland's book at my local open to public CUUPS event?

 
Looked at your blog post Jennett.  Looks like this is a grey area.  

I thought that people producing say Shakespeare had to pay royalties to some publisher, but I can't quickly find a source that says that old material is fully free for  public performance. That may be an issue of having to buy and pay for actual scripts that are still in copyright though.

Did Llwellyn rep ever saying anything about their general intentions?  Would seem odd that public performance rules would not be included in the books - please pay for pubic rituals or don't do them at all, or free to perform but no printing of the material for the general attendees, etc so that groups can avoid major hurt along with more firestorms in the pagan community.

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 06:18:50 pm »
Quote from: sailor;147916

I thought that people producing say Shakespeare had to pay royalties to some publisher, but I can't quickly find a source that says that old material is fully free for  public performance. That may be an issue of having to buy and pay for actual scripts that are still in copyright though.


Likely, yes. And a particular edition of a given work may still be under copyright - for example, a volume with an introduction, glosses on unfamiliar terms, expansions of stage directions, etc.

Quote

Did Llwellyn rep ever saying anything about their general intentions?  Would seem odd that public performance rules would not be included in the books - please pay for pubic rituals or don't do them at all, or free to perform but no printing of the material for the general attendees, etc so that groups can avoid major hurt along with more firestorms in the pagan community.


Again, two years ago now, and this is an area complicated enough that I am not going to attempt to sort out the law for it on demand, please. (Because hi, not a lawyer, hi, have some complicated stuff going on in my own life right now, and hi, this is a particularly complicated chunk of work that would take me several hours of digging to be certain about, and likely involve some ILL requests of specialised materials because a lot of generally availabe sources don't cover religious uses very clearly.)

As I noted, use of text *in an explicit ritual setting* is a specific exemption under US copyright law. Whether that would apply to a complete ritual is a good question. Personally, I would look for either an indication in the book, or I would seek permission of the copyright holder. Or possibly both, depending. (That's for a public ritual: for a private one, it's a bit more murky, but if there's an indication in the book that rituals are intended for use, I'd consider that sufficient, personally.)

Far more commonly, people use one or two pieces out of a full scripted ritual, because they need to adjust other pieces to fit their circumstances, usual ritual practices, etc. That's much clearer under the law, to say "We're using this invocation to the God here, and this bit of ritual storytelling there." and then filling in other bits as appropriate.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 06:19:25 pm by Jenett »
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sailor

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2014, 06:28:30 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;147918



Again, two years ago now, and this is an area complicated enough that I am not going to attempt to sort out the law for it on demand, please. (Because hi, not a lawyer, hi, have some complicated stuff going on in my own life right now, and hi, this is a particularly complicated chunk of work that would take me several hours of digging to be certain about, and likely involve some ILL requests of specialised materials because a lot of generally availabe sources don't cover religious uses very clearly.)

As I noted, use of text *in an explicit ritual setting* is a specific exemption under US copyright law. Whether that would apply to a complete ritual is a good question. Personally, I would look for either an indication in the book, or I would seek permission of the copyright holder. Or possibly both, depending. (That's for a public ritual: for a private one, it's a bit more murky, but if there's an indication in the book that rituals are intended for use, I'd consider that sufficient, personally.)

Far more commonly, people use one or two pieces out of a full scripted ritual, because they need to adjust other pieces to fit their circumstances, usual ritual practices, etc. That's much clearer under the law, to say "We're using this invocation to the God here, and this bit of ritual storytelling there." and then filling in other bits as appropriate.

 
Not a problem.  Two years ago is a good reason to not remember on a complicated issue; and any significant research is something that anybody should only ask for help (not actual research) after doing a bunch of basic research to see if it's reasonably answerable.

sailor

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Re: Copyright, Privacy, and the modern Pagan
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 06:30:30 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;147918

As I noted, use of text *in an explicit ritual setting* is a specific exemption under US copyright law.

 
I must have overlooked that in your posts. My poor.

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