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Author Topic: Can Someone Point Me Towards Sources On the Concept of Yahweh Coming from Ba'al or El  (Read 2604 times)

Elizabeth

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I am interested in looking at the early connection between Yahweh and Ba'al and/or El. I have seen it referenced in different places, but am never able to track down anything too definitive or thorough.

I appreciate websites, blogs, books, etc.
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“I would like to see anyone, prophet, king or God, convince a thousand cats to do the same thing at the same time.” - Neil Gaiman

yewberry

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115932
I am interested in looking at the early connection between Yahweh and Ba'al and/or El. I have seen it referenced in different places, but am never able to track down anything too definitive or thorough.


There are all kinds of footnotes here.  Maybe check out the sources there?

Brina

Elizabeth

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Quote from: yewberry;115933
There are all kinds of footnotes here.  Maybe check out the sources there?

Brina

 
Good idea! I read the Wiki page, but I never think to look at the footnotes, since I usually only use Wiki for a brief jumping off point.

Thank you!!
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Naomi J

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Quote from: yewberry;115933
There are all kinds of footnotes here.  Maybe check out the sources there?

Brina

 
The Gnuse book is good (and comes out of my university department, where they write interesting stuff on this and related subjects).
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Quote from: Elizabeth;115932
I am interested in looking at the early connection between Yahweh and Ba'al and/or El. I have seen it referenced in different places, but am never able to track down anything too definitive or thorough.

I appreciate websites, blogs, books, etc.

 
You might try researching Asherah / asherim in the Bible.  Those scholars who argue that the word refers to the actual Goddess, not a cultic object, make the obvious connection that El was likely syncretized with YHWH since both were represented with the same consort.  The problem is that the books that cover this tend to be hard to find in libraries and expensive otherwise . . . this one is $100+, but I really enjoyed her summary of the problem.

RandallS

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115934
Good idea! I read the Wiki page, but I never think to look at the footnotes, since I usually only use Wiki for a brief jumping off point.

The references in the footnotes are often the best thing about a wikipedia article -- especially if you want more than a quick overview.
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EclecticWheel

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115932
I am interested in looking at the early connection between Yahweh and Ba'al and/or El. I have seen it referenced in different places, but am never able to track down anything too definitive or thorough.

I appreciate websites, blogs, books, etc.

 
Other people here will know more about the specifics of this than I do, but I see that you're Eastern Orthodox, so you might be interested reading the Bible itself.

I always recommend the Jewish Study Bible: Tanakh Translation which can be found on Amazon and probably elsewhere.

Reading the Torah with the commentary will give you a large amount of scholarly material to see the evolution in the Hebrew Bible from a polytheistic system honoring Yahweh as the "Most High God" (how can be Most High if there aren't others) amongst a pantheon.

If you wanted, you could start with the Book of Job and the commentary.  You will see that the adversary tempting Job was not Satan, a later concept, but an angel/god subject to Yahweh.

Job includes a beautiful creation story, and guess what, Yahweh wasn't the only god involved.

It's dense reading.  It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I have found it very helpful to understanding this.
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Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Elizabeth

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Quote from: Snowdrop;115958
You might try researching Asherah / asherim in the Bible.  Those scholars who argue that the word refers to the actual Goddess, not a cultic object, make the obvious connection that El was likely syncretized with YHWH since both were represented with the same consort.  The problem is that the books that cover this tend to be hard to find in libraries and expensive otherwise . . . this one is $100+, but I really enjoyed her summary of the problem.

 
Yeah, my library doesn't have that book unfortunately. It would have been a great read!
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Elizabeth

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Quote from: EclecticWheel;115973


If you wanted, you could start with the Book of Job and the commentary.  You will see that the adversary tempting Job was not Satan, a later concept, but an angel/god subject to Yahweh.



Could you expand on this? Are there any good links on this? Every translation I have seen as said it was Satan, though I know that could be a later addition.
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EclecticWheel

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115978
Could you expand on this? Are there any good links on this? Every translation I have seen as said it was Satan, though I know that could be a later addition.

 
I wish I could find a better link on this, but this summary appears to be accurate from my studies.

Try googling "Divine Council Hebrew Bible" and plenty of PDF files come up that should be more in depth and helpful.  Unfortunately, I can't locate my Hebrew Bible right now or I'd review some of the notes and give you more specific information.  If you can get your hands on a copy of the text I recommended, it's really a gem to understanding the Divine Council and the evolution of the Torah and other Hebrew writings.  Personally, the Torah is my favorite part of the Bible.  It seems to me like the most diverse set of writings in the Bible.  Those who put it together intentionally conserved many different points of view and variations of stories.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Elizabeth

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Quote from: EclecticWheel;115979
I wish I could find a better link on this, but this summary appears to be accurate from my studies.

Try googling "Divine Council Hebrew Bible" and plenty of PDF files come up that should be more in depth and helpful.  Unfortunately, I can't locate my Hebrew Bible right now or I'd review some of the notes and give you more specific information.  If you can get your hands on a copy of the text I recommended, it's really a gem to understanding the Divine Council and the evolution of the Torah and other Hebrew writings.  Personally, the Torah is my favorite part of the Bible.  It seems to me like the most diverse set of writings in the Bible.  Those who put it together intentionally conserved many different points of view and variations of stories.

 
Thank you for the link. I was able to find the Study Bible you recommended and will be able to pick it up tomorrow at the library.
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Jack

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115978
Could you expand on this? Are there any good links on this? Every translation I have seen as said it was Satan, though I know that could be a later addition.

 
My understanding of the Book of Job is that it's not that the being making Job miserable isn't Satan, but that Satan there is more like a job title. If YHWH is the CEO, the Satan is perhaps the job title for the head of internal affairs. His job is to make test people and see if they hold up, like Job did, under suffering.

(http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/12-35.html refers to this, frex.)
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EclecticWheel

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Quote from: Elizabeth;115984
Thank you for the link. I was able to find the Study Bible you recommended and will be able to pick it up tomorrow at the library.

 
Great!  I don't think you will be disappointed.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Elizabeth

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Quote from: EclecticWheel;115996
Great!  I don't think you will be disappointed.

Already found some interesting tidbits. I compared the Jewish Study Bible's footnotes to those of the New Jerusalem Bible, as well as a Catholic Study Bible (I cannot remember the actual name).

The Jewish Study Bible and New Jerusalem Bible were pretty close in their study notes when it came to Exodus 20 (the 10 Commandements), and Deut 4:35-39.

Exodus 20:3 -
Quote
"You shall have no other gods besides Me."

Both the JSB and NJB said this was not a denial of other gods, just they should not be worshiped. The Catholic Study Bible seemed to bend over backwards to say this *was* a denial of other gods.

Deut. 4:35 -
Quote
"It has been clearly demonstrated to you that the LORD alone is God; there is none beside Him."

The NJB mentioned the transition from monolatry to monotheism.

In Deut. 5:7 -
Quote
"You shall have no other gods beside Me."

From the JSB:

Quote
This first commandment takes for granted the existence of other gods; its concern is only to ensure Israel's exclusive loyalty to YHVH. This perspective, called "monolatry," is found frequently within Deuteronomy (see 6.4; 32.8-9, 43; 33.2-3, 27).

It then goes onto explain monolatry in this context represents YHVH as the ruler of the divine council. Monotheism seemed to have developed later in Israelite religion, probably during the Babylonian exile.

It also provides more verses in the footnotes that show the progression from monolatry to monotheism in Israelite religion.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 02:24:18 pm by Elizabeth »
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EclecticWheel

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Quote from: Elizabeth;116073
Already found some interesting tidbits. I compared the Jewish Study Bible's footnotes to those of the New Jerusalem Bible, as well as a Catholic Study Bible (I cannot remember the actual name).

The Jewish Study Bible and New Jerusalem Bible were pretty close in their study notes when it came to Exodus 20 (the 10 Commandements), and Deut 4:35-39.

Exodus 20:3 -


Both the JSB and NJB said this was not a denial of other gods, just they should not be worshiped. The Catholic Study Bible seemed to bend over backwards to say this *was* a denial of other gods.

Deut. 4:35 -


The NJB mentioned the transition from monolatry to monotheism.

In Deut. 5:7 -


From the JSB:



It then goes onto explain monolatry in this context represents YHVH as the ruler of the divine council. Monotheism seemed to have developed later in Israelite religion, probably during the Babylonian exile.

It also provides more verses in the footnotes that show the progression from monolatry to monotheism in Israelite religion.

 
Very cool.  The NJB is one of my favorite translations made by Christians.

You will learn a lot from the Jewish study Bible, even what the origins are of certain Christian ceremonies, traditions, and liturgies.  There are lots of essays in the back, too.  I really enjoyed reading the one on Jewish Mysticism.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

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