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Author Topic: Another Religious Crisis  (Read 3008 times)

Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2018, 05:53:15 pm »
This, particularly the sentence I bolded, set off alarm bells for me. It sounds like maybe your BF's interest in traditionalism is at least partly spurred by internalized homophobia, and he's hoping that, if he's as strictly and properly Catholic as possible, God will make the gay go away - and that as long as he still experiences SSA, that means God hasn't held up his end of this bad bargain, so he continues to 'sin' to get back at God for it. The self-discipline of celibacy isn't enough, and isn't even something he can be bothered with; what he wants is to not have to practice self-discipline.

In that scenario, you're not really his partner; you're not even primarily his dirty little secret - you're just a means by which he can punish God. And if God were to respond to that punishment by giving your BF what he wants, there'd be no relationship to hide or be out about.

In getting ready to post this, I reread the earlier parts of the thread, from last December, and came across a bit that set off even more alarm bells:

There are other bits you've said that are similarly disturbing, but not as explicitly problematic. That's pretty straightforward passive-aggressive controlling BS. Seriously - if he's not prepared to be out as partnered with you, in the traditionalist spaces you both share but that you're not comfortable in, he has no business being sullen about you wanting to worship somewhere more congenial to you.

I've gathered that you're anxious about being alone/not being able to find another BF/not being able to find a BF who shares enough of your spiritual interests. But being partnered with someone who tries to control how you express those interests, but OTOH doesn't actually want the relationship to exist (or anyway doesn't want the basis on which the relationship is built to exist, which is basically the same thing) and is keeping it a secret, is gonna wear you down, screw up your self-esteem (and indeed, already is, I think). At the very best, he's got a metric fuckton of baggage about gayness and religion, and he's basically making you carry it for him. You don't need this shit, you definitely don't deserve this shit, and you can do better than this. DTMFA.

Now, you're there, and know him; I'm not and don't - I might well have made inaccurate surmises about those alarm bells. But I'm pretty confident I haven't misidentified them; they are red flags. At the very least, please do think long and hard about their red-flag-ness, Demo, and decide if this is truly the kind of relationship you want.

Sunflower

Thanks for your post and your support. I've tried to cut him some slack because he grew up in the Middle East where being homosexual is not only immoral but illegal, so I sympathize with his hesitance when it comes to being honest with his church friends from that perspective. It is a deal-breaker when it starts to control my life, though. If we planned on living together and he wanted to refer to me only as his roommate to most of the people he knows, I don't think I could put up with it.

On a more positive note, I took a break from the Solemn Latin Mass this Sunday and went first to my former mainline Catholic parish to fulfill my Sunday obligation at an early Mass, then went to the High Mass at my old Anglican parish right after. It was the last Sunday of one of the associate priests, so I wanted to go visit and wish her luck. Admittedly, it was nice to be back with supportive clergy and friends who aren't crazy. There is one of the altar servers, who is a man in his 50s, who has made inappropriate remarks to me before, and was winking at me yesterday, so I guess there is always something, no matter where one goes. Anyway, my SO was fully aware I went to the Novus Ordo and heretical Anglicans all in one day, and didn't make a fuss, so maybe that's progress.

So far I've tried to be accommodating of his religious views and personal issues around his sexual orientation, but I do agree that if it ends up being a persistent issue (which so far it has been), then it is not a healthy environment for me. Now that I'm finishing up school, I have a bit more flexibility to pursue my own interests, and reconsider how far I want to continue in this relationship if my partner's focus doesn't shift quite a bit.

Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2018, 08:29:37 pm »
Now that I'm finishing up school, I have a bit more flexibility to pursue my own interests, and reconsider how far I want to continue in this relationship if my partner's focus doesn't shift quite a bit.

Since I finished my MDiv program a few weeks ago, I've lost all interest in the Roman Church, and I feel like there is nothing that it really offers me. This past weekend I realized I have had enough of my partner's Latin Mass parish and his nutty friends, so I will be doing my own thing on Sundays. It's a big relief, and I'm excited to experience other places of worship. My significant other will not be happy if I settle in a church that isn't Catholic, but it's a reality he will probably have to deal with, because I'm not interested in continuing with Roman Catholicism. I may go to an early Mass at a mainstream Catholic parish before returning to a high Mass at high Anglican parishes, just to make sure I'm done with Rome, but the Novus Ordo liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church is so terrible, and now that I've reached a point where I find the only parish that has a weekly Solemn Latin Mass intolerable, going back to Anglicanism is really the only option for good liturgy and music, and a much more edifying community than traditionalist Romans.

EclecticWheel

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 12:39:18 am »
Since I finished my MDiv program a few weeks ago, I've lost all interest in the Roman Church, and I feel like there is nothing that it really offers me. This past weekend I realized I have had enough of my partner's Latin Mass parish and his nutty friends, so I will be doing my own thing on Sundays. It's a big relief, and I'm excited to experience other places of worship. My significant other will not be happy if I settle in a church that isn't Catholic, but it's a reality he will probably have to deal with, because I'm not interested in continuing with Roman Catholicism. I may go to an early Mass at a mainstream Catholic parish before returning to a high Mass at high Anglican parishes, just to make sure I'm done with Rome, but the Novus Ordo liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church is so terrible, and now that I've reached a point where I find the only parish that has a weekly Solemn Latin Mass intolerable, going back to Anglicanism is really the only option for good liturgy and music, and a much more edifying community than traditionalist Romans.

I don't blame you.  I went back to the Anglicans, too.  They will take you even if you do have neo-pagan tendencies, and I enjoy the community and communal ritual which really enriches my private practices and gives me a useful context for them.
My personal moral code:

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Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2018, 07:15:03 pm »
I don't blame you.  I went back to the Anglicans, too.  They will take you even if you do have neo-pagan tendencies, and I enjoy the community and communal ritual which really enriches my private practices and gives me a useful context for them.

Yeah, I love the Anglicans. I feel like the post-conciliar Roman Church has come closer the Anglican Church on a lot of theological issues, even though the liturgy is bad and there are still some problematic teachings that have no foundation in the ministry of Jesus. I love the pastor of the parish I used to go to before I switched to the Latin Mass to be with hubby, but I think there are still too many things about the Roman Church I can't reconcile myself to anymore.

I would love to get more involved in paganism, but I can't find a group that feels right. My city is terrible when it comes to the pagan community, to the point that I would consider moving if I knew of a group that interests me in another city. Wicca interests me again, but I like the British Traditional kind, which are surprisingly difficult to find. I know a Gardnerian high priestess and have taken classes with her coven, but the classes kind of faded out and nothing came of it, so we seekers were kind of left high and dry. I guess the right community will come at the right time. Although, if Anglicanism is bad for my relationship, paganism will be even worse. Oh well lol.

SunflowerP

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2018, 07:30:54 pm »
I would love to get more involved in paganism, but I can't find a group that feels right. My city is terrible when it comes to the pagan community, to the point that I would consider moving if I knew of a group that interests me in another city. Wicca interests me again, but I like the British Traditional kind, which are surprisingly difficult to find.

Has no one pointed you at the Amber and Jet email list yet? Remiss of me not to; I'm sorry. (I won't speak for anyone else.)

It's international, which of course means 'largely USian', and as such not specific to your city, but it is BTW-specific, so it can help with the 'hard to find' aspect. (I not only know from that list, but have met in person, a lovely Alexandrian HPs from your region - I rather think she herself might have retired from teaching/coven leadership for health reasons, but there should be folks from her downline around.)

Sunflower
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“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
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Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2018, 11:20:12 pm »
Has no one pointed you at the Amber and Jet email list yet? Remiss of me not to; I'm sorry. (I won't speak for anyone else.)

It's international, which of course means 'largely USian', and as such not specific to your city, but it is BTW-specific, so it can help with the 'hard to find' aspect. (I not only know from that list, but have met in person, a lovely Alexandrian HPs from your region - I rather think she herself might have retired from teaching/coven leadership for health reasons, but there should be folks from her downline around.)

Sunflower

Oh cool, thanks!

Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 10:08:58 am »
Although, if Anglicanism is bad for my relationship, paganism will be even worse. Oh well lol.

One more update, if anyone cares... lol.

My partner and I went our separate ways. I guess it dawned on him that being a traditional Latin Mass, SSPX-loving, extremist wacko... I mean... traditional Catholic, is not compatible with being in a same-sex relationship, and he wants to try celibacy. I was blindsided a bit, as I would often bring up these tensions to him and  ask if this was sustainable long term, and he would act heartbroken that I was questioning if our relationship would last.

In some ways it's a relief, especially because now I can do whatever I want religiously, and I don't have to be frustrated by the ignorant things he and his friends say anymore, not just when it comes to women/LGBTQ/non-Catholics, but also the way they affirm traditions with no good theological basis. At the same time, it's sad and I miss spending time with him one on one. The weird thing is, I've attended my old Anglo-Catholic church the past few weeks, and I feel like I'm over it. Servers don't genuflect or even bow to the tabernacle out of the context of liturgy, people just walk past the sanctuary with no reverence at all, and even the rector doesn't reverence the Blessed Sacrament when he opens the tabernacle. The liturgy is nice, but they don't really seem to have a deep understanding of what they are doing. If Anglicans are going to pretend to be Roman, they should at least do it right. Maybe it's better just to have the real thing. I'm still drawn to paganism, and find some of the teachings of the Church troubling, but being back in a context where Vatican II is acknowledged, there is a bit more flexibility and more emphasis on individual conscience and spiritual truth being present in various religious traditions.

SunflowerP

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2018, 01:02:13 am »
One more update, if anyone cares... lol.

My partner and I went our separate ways.

(((Demophon))) I wondered if that might be in this update. I hope you find a partner who's better-suited to you and with whom you can have a healthier relationship.

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EclecticWheel

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2018, 08:05:57 pm »
Servers don't genuflect or even bow to the tabernacle out of the context of liturgy, people just walk past the sanctuary with no reverence at all, and even the rector doesn't reverence the Blessed Sacrament when he opens the tabernacle. The liturgy is nice, but they don't really seem to have a deep understanding of what they are doing. If Anglicans are going to pretend to be Roman, they should at least do it right. Maybe it's better just to have the real thing.

Well, they're Anglican not Roman, and while some Anglo-Catholics do try to imitate everything Roman this is not true of them all, and not all Anglo-Catholics emphasize devotion to the sacrament outside of the context of liturgy, especially the very traditionalist types.  The Orthodox don't tend to emphasize that, either.  To find a home in Anglicanism I think it is best to accept it for what it is without trying to imitate Rome or compare it to Rome all the time because Anglicanism including Anglo-Catholicism is its own animal.

I do relate to your spiritual struggle.  I am struggling with tensions between my private spirituality and my communal spirituality.  Right now I've decided not to change anything because I may just be worried over nothing as usual.

It sounds like the best is happening for you in regard to your ex-relationship.  I still dearly miss someone I have left behind, but it had to be done.  There's just no way I could be with a self-repressed gay person who despises their own attraction to me, and I don't think you should be in that situation either.

The best of luck to you in the Catholic Church and on your spiritual journey.  You should be able to find more accepting communities outside of the traditionalist circles.
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Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Demophon

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Re: Another Religious Crisis
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2018, 08:01:19 pm »
Well, they're Anglican not Roman, and while some Anglo-Catholics do try to imitate everything Roman this is not true of them all, and not all Anglo-Catholics emphasize devotion to the sacrament outside of the context of liturgy, especially the very traditionalist types.  The Orthodox don't tend to emphasize that, either.  To find a home in Anglicanism I think it is best to accept it for what it is without trying to imitate Rome or compare it to Rome all the time because Anglicanism including Anglo-Catholicism is its own animal.

You're right, although this parish is one of those that traditionally imitates Roman liturgy. Anglicanism is so inconsistent, so some people, even priests, can be unfamiliar with the traditions of certain parishes, since they vary so much.

There is a different Anglo-Catholic parish whose liturgy I like better, even though I'm more attached to the people at the aforementioned one. This other one follows the Prayer Book, so it's more traditionally Anglican with come of the extra frills of Tridentine liturgy. I think the liturgy and music there are even better than the Roman parish I went to for the Solemn Latin Mass, so it may be a satisfying place to settle.

The best of luck to you in the Catholic Church and on your spiritual journey.  You should be able to find more accepting communities outside of the traditionalist circles.

Thank you. :) I have moments where I like being in communion with the Holy See, and this week I even acquired three old missals from before Vatican II, so I've been tempted to remain Roman and even to go back to the Latin Mass, but I don't think it's really sustainable in the long run if I want to be open and honest with people. I've even tried to go back to the Novus Ordo, but it's so unbearably bad, it's not worthwhile. I will see how things go at the other Anglo-Catholic place.


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