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Author Topic: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues  (Read 4601 times)

sailor

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 08:43:06 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;169991
Yep. Assimilationism, respectability politics.

I've never been able to wrap my head around that; if someone wanted so badly to Fit In and Be Normal and all that, why paganism, fer gossakes? (But, well, my teen rebellion wasn't against my parents, it was against normativity (and my peers) and I've never really outgrown it.)

Sunflower

 
Depends upon what you mean by "Fit in and Be Normal".   There used to an article I wrote posted here at TC, but it seems to be gone. I found it over at ADF.
https://www.adf.org/articles/identity/expect.html

I was looking for a pagan community - basically mainstream institutions, but different theology.  Mainstream in this case runs from the Amish to Catholic to Morman to Quaker to Jewish to Shinto.

Valeria Crowe

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2015, 09:00:22 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;169990
I dunno how much of that is about the 'more Other' looking down on the 'less Other'; a lot of it is, 'Stop being so weird and untidy, you're making us look bad.' We non-monosexuals threaten their acceptability as 'just another sort of monosexual' (and other things, but it's all about how we are a threat to their acceptability/respectability).

Sunflower

 
Well, they've phrased it in such ways.

Been called straight and accused of straight privlege a lot, which always struck me as them trying to view me as closer to the heterosexual majority.

Interpretations differ. One thing is sure, the next person tells me I have straight privlege is getting their head bitten off. Oi, so inane.
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RandallS

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 07:56:36 am »
Quote from: sailor;169995
Depends upon what you mean by "Fit in and Be Normal".   There used to an article I wrote posted here at TC, but it seems to be gone.

It's still here: http://www.ecauldron.net/opedexpect.php
Randall
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sailor

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 10:02:24 am »
Quote from: RandallS;170016
It's still here: http://www.ecauldron.net/opedexpect.php

 
Thanks, I was looking in the wrong area.

Ghost235

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 03:18:49 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;169994
I actually think, though, that this is one of the fascinating undercurrents in some things.  (I'm thinking of the First Church Of Wicca stuff that resurged recently on TWH and led to me spending several days muttering.)  That there are people who want their goddess-worship, or their crystal-waving Craft, but they want it to be normal - congregational, weekly meetings, an authority figure up in front, and so on.



This.

I think that what a lot of people forget is that a lot of people who have alternative beliefs grew up in and in some ways are quite comfortable with how their religion worked on a nuts and bolts level.

There seems to be this assumption that if you leave a particular religion that you want absolutely no part of anything to do with it(and in some cases that's definitely true).  

However, there are a lot of people who love the idea of a spiritual community that they meet with two or three times a week formally and most nights informally, a clear leader, and the occasional celebratory event(i.e., your typical southern protestant church) but think the Bible is hideous and Jesus is creepy.

Just like there are gay people who want a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence, 2.5 kids, and an SUV.  The only difference between them and your average married couple is that(not to be too vulgar) they have different ideas of what they find sexually appealing.

As far as I can see the problem comes when those people interact with people who want to jettison the whole reality construct and organize in a radical new way.

Darkhawk

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 07:00:28 pm »
Quote from: Ghost235;170180
As far as I can see the problem comes when those people interact with people who want to jettison the whole reality construct and organize in a radical new way.

 
Well, part of the reason for that being a problem is that the religious structure of most pagan religions does not start out congregational (or even congregational-compatible), which means that those people are dragging in 'what does a religion do' stuff that is, at best, something that has to be created within most systems and is a modification thereof.  And a lot of people do get the "no, wait, you're doing it wrong" reaction to people who come in and want things to be rearranged for them.

(This is one of the reasons that public ritual is Difficult and also often Terrible.)

Another part of the reason is that a lot of pagan groups are... ... very transient.  To be polite about it.  So there isn't a lot of reliable whatever-it-is to go around.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lokison

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 01:53:18 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931
Especially those who are on an 'amoral' path (like chaos magic).  Those who think cursing can be valid or even (less frequently but it happens) those who don't follow the Threefold Law.  

 
What does morality have to do with Chaos Magic?   I'm an avid Chaote and I've seen Christians that are swimming down the amoral stream.

Blessing/Cursing are both valid.  Whether I lift you up or push your enemy down, the result is the same.  Although I will say that I am better at curses than blessings.
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Jack

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 05:45:24 pm »
Quote from: Lokison;170604
What does morality have to do with Chaos Magic?   I'm an avid Chaote and I've seen Christians that are swimming down the amoral stream.

 
Referring to Chaos Magic as amoral is pretty much saying that morality has nothing to do with it, so I am not following your point here. Can you please explain further?
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Lokison

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Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 08:10:01 am »
Quote from: Jack;170615
Referring to Chaos Magic as amoral is pretty much saying that morality has nothing to do with it, so I am not following your point here. Can you please explain further?

 
LOL... yeah I misread it.  My brain read it as immoral.  So, scratch that part of my post.
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

Tanbrid

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931
A few more thoughts on this.

I have no issue with exclusion per se.  In fact the flipside of this issue is that far too many pagans are carriers of geek social fallacy #1.  (Bonus points for those people who manage to both do that and do the "ewww Satanists" thang at the same time).  In fact, the moot I used to be involved with was pretty well-known for not being a welcoming place for folkish types.  (And any actual fascist turning up would have risked leaving through a window).



My main issue with *some* Satanists (not all) is the LaVeyen type that is very Ayn Rand with Goth make-up* in its morality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
But then again, some Heathens seem to read a version of the Havamal translated by her as well.

Otherwise, I don't really care. Angels, Mary, Jesus, and saints get syncretized into people's Paganisms, whether other people approve or not. It seems pretty arbitrary to draw the line at demons & the Devil. I'd happily support that Temple of Satan group that keeps foiling the Right wing Chri$tians. (I think they are mostly a political rather than religious group anyway)

*Note- I mentioned "goth make-up" jokingly here, but I have no problem with goths either, Pagan or otherwise

I judge people by their actions & behavior, not their labels, personal appearance etc. I'm more interested in befriending & allying with people who share my values, regardless of theology or practice.

I believe there is a time & a place to put your best foot forward, so to speak in terms of how you present yourself (& religion) to the public, but you can do that without kicking "weirder" people under the bus. People who don't like us, won't like us no matter how much we try to "normalize" Paganisms.

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