collapse
2020 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $710 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 17 September 2020: $535 donated. Only $175 more need! Thank you, donors!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues  (Read 4599 times)

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169869
There's a third thing that, knowing the views of our hosts, I'm sure also has no chance of changing.  But I want to throw my support behind the current policy of allowing people to self-identify as pagans and/or occultists.

And the associated stuff like the refusal to exclude Satanists et al.


Quote from: RandallS;169871
That definitely will not be changing -- at least not as long as Lyric and I are running things.


Quote from: Yei;169906
I'm just curious but, was their ever actually a debate on the forum about this?


Quote from: Jabberwocky;169907
Not on here.  But it's something of an issue elsewhere.


Quote from: Yei;169908
Do you mind if I ask where?

Or would that be a little...invasive/impolite/impudent/what's the word I'm looking for...?


Quote from: Jabberwocky;169910
A really good example would be this article from Isaac Bonewits of the ADF.

I actually like a lot of Bonewits stuff, but he was one of the worst offenders for trying to redefine paganism so it only included people he liked.

See this as well, where he decides that "what Isaac believes" and "what Neopagans believe" are synonymous.


Quote from: RandallS;169915
I liked Issac as a person, but often disagreed with him. His issues with Satanism being considered "pagan" was one of those areas.


 
This was one of my early issues with the ADF: I didn't think a Pagan pope was needed. LOL.


Quote from: SunflowerP;169922
IME, 'but not those awful Satanists!' (usually founded in the assumption that the Christian right's conception of what Satanists are and do - most specifically, that they 'worship the Christian devil' - is accurate:rolleye::) is endemic in Pagandom.

Sunflower
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 09:02:12 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928
Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:


A few more thoughts on this.

I have no issue with exclusion per se.  In fact the flipside of this issue is that far too many pagans are carriers of geek social fallacy #1.  (Bonus points for those people who manage to both do that and do the "ewww Satanists" thang at the same time).  In fact, the moot I used to be involved with was pretty well-known for not being a welcoming place for folkish types.  (And any actual fascist turning up would have risked leaving through a window).

So, actually, I think Isaac had a perfect right to define the beliefs of the ADF in the way he did.  I'll even support his right to refuse to work with Satanists on an individual level.  (Although personally I think that refusing to do so on issues like religious persecution is tactically inept).  What I take issue with is his attempts to claim a monopoly on the definitions of paganism and to codify beliefs in a way that matched his own.  I simply don't accept that he had any kind of authority to declare people apostates and heretics in the way he tried to.

This issue is closely linked to attempts to 'mainstream' Paganism.  To try and present it as 'respectable' and find a more unified voice to present to outsiders.  So it's closely linked to stuff like claiming that all Pagans 'respect' or even 'worship' nature.  I don't really have a dog in that fight.  (I don't identify as a Pagan.  Hell, I'm normally pretty reluctant to identify as an occultist these days).  But I can see why people take issue with it.

It's one of the reasons I think Satanists are something of a canary in the mine on this.  Because it rarely ends with Satanists.  Why would it, when you're wanting to 'tidy' up Paganism?

So those that follow deities that are seen as too 'dark' frequently follow close behind for condemnation.  Occultists in general.  Especially those who are on an 'amoral' path (like chaos magic).  Those who think cursing can be valid or even (less frequently but it happens) those who don't follow the Threefold Law.  And it can even extend as far as many recons, who don't follow Paganism in the way that the speaker thinks it should be defined.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Redfaery

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1345
  • Total likes: 40
    • View Profile
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 01:24:06 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928
Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:


I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in their right mind would worship the fundamentalist Christian interpretation of Satan, which is so often what the Wicca 101 books seem to be denouncing. I mean, the way fundies always described Him made me feel like they actually expected a guy to show up with a tail sticking out of his pants. He didn't seem dangerous or even believable. He was just a cartoon for them to project their insecurities onto so they could puff themselves up and be prideful about how much faith they had.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2015, 07:16:36 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931


 
Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one.  The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement.  Or any other group that has an extreme end.  "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders.  We're not THEM.  You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different.  Not THOSE people.

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 10:01:34 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931

  To try and present it as 'respectable' and find a more unified voice to present to outsiders.
So those that follow deities that are seen as too 'dark' frequently follow close behind for condemnation.


Paganism isn't respectable? I've been living a lie!:D:

Among branches of Sanatana Dharma you will find worship of the Bhutah, the ghosts of evil persons, which are also believed to be evil; but by worshiping them they are cleansed and become the deity of the village they haunted. Moral of the story: some things are only evil because we choose to view them as such.

Emma Eldritch

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1265
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
    • https://rocknrollwitch.blogspot.ca/
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2015, 04:11:11 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;169947
I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in their right mind would worship the fundamentalist Christian interpretation of Satan, which is so often what the Wicca 101 books seem to be denouncing. I mean, the way fundies always described Him made me feel like they actually expected a guy to show up with a tail sticking out of his pants. He didn't seem dangerous or even believable. He was just a cartoon for them to project their insecurities onto so they could puff themselves up and be prideful about how much faith they had.

 
What, you never met a guy like ?

But seriously, I guess that would depend on your definition of 'worship.' I can say that I do understand why someone would embrace the Jack Chick version of Satan - there's a certain power in running with the most overblown 'other' mythology has to offer.

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 576
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 149
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2015, 04:21:38 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928
Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.


Something I didn't ask in the other thread but...

Who is Isaac Bonewits anyway?

Valeria Crowe

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 340
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://thesallowbeldam.tumblr.com/
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2015, 05:03:21 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;169949
Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one.  The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement.  Or any other group that has an extreme end.  "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders.  We're not THEM.  You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different.  Not THOSE people.

 
And on the other hand, the more 'other' part of the group often look down on those they see as closer to the mainstream, viewing them as not really members of the group, posessing mainstream privlege, sellouts, denying some essential part of their identity, etc.

As a bisexual man, I get that sometimes from that gay community, being told its a phase, that I have striaght privlege and will abandon the lgbt community, that I'm suffering from internalized homophobia and need to become the gay  man I 'really' am.

Neither attitude is sensible or constructive, and only serves to divide communities and groups of communites who most need to be united.
"This is a sorrow-spider. Which end do you hold it by? TRICK QUESTION!"

Redfaery

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1345
  • Total likes: 40
    • View Profile
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2015, 05:29:05 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;169975
What, you never met a guy like ?

 
You threw me for a loop there. I was expecting Richard Ramirez.

Actually, I think there should be a Godwin's Law corollary for Satanism - the longer any discussion of Satanic worship goes on, the greater the likelihood that The Night Stalker will be mentioned.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Emma Eldritch

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1265
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
    • https://rocknrollwitch.blogspot.ca/
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2015, 05:44:11 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;169982
You threw me for a loop there. I was expecting Richard Ramirez.

Actually, I think there should be a Godwin's Law corollary for Satanism - the longer any discussion of Satanic worship goes on, the greater the likelihood that The Night Stalker will be mentioned.

 
I shouldn't find that funny, but I do. I'm a bad person.

Redfaery

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1345
  • Total likes: 40
    • View Profile
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2015, 05:46:27 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;169983
I shouldn't find that funny, but I do. I'm a bad person.

 
I must be an awful person, then...because it was a joke.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8724
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 331
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2015, 07:35:46 pm »
Quote from: Yei;169977
Something I didn't ask in the other thread but...

Who is Isaac Bonewits anyway?

 
Here ya go.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8724
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 331
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2015, 07:42:32 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;169981
And on the other hand, the more 'other' part of the group often look down on those they see as closer to the mainstream, viewing them as not really members of the group, posessing mainstream privlege, sellouts, denying some essential part of their identity, etc.

As a bisexual man, I get that sometimes from that gay community, being told its a phase, that I have striaght privlege and will abandon the lgbt community, that I'm suffering from internalized homophobia and need to become the gay  man I 'really' am.

Neither attitude is sensible or constructive, and only serves to divide communities and groups of communites who most need to be united.

 
I dunno how much of that is about the 'more Other' looking down on the 'less Other'; a lot of it is, 'Stop being so weird and untidy, you're making us look bad.' We non-monosexuals threaten their acceptability as 'just another sort of monosexual' (and other things, but it's all about how we are a threat to their acceptability/respectability).

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8724
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 331
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2015, 07:46:26 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;169949
Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one.  The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement.  Or any other group that has an extreme end.  "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders.  We're not THEM.  You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different.  Not THOSE people.

 
Yep. Assimilationism, respectability politics.

I've never been able to wrap my head around that; if someone wanted so badly to Fit In and Be Normal and all that, why paganism, fer gossakes? (But, well, my teen rebellion wasn't against my parents, it was against normativity (and my peers) and I've never really outgrown it.)

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4971
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 872
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2015, 08:38:11 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;169991
I've never been able to wrap my head around that; if someone wanted so badly to Fit In and Be Normal and all that, why paganism, fer gossakes?


I actually think, though, that this is one of the fascinating undercurrents in some things.  (I'm thinking of the First Church Of Wicca stuff that resurged recently on TWH and led to me spending several days muttering.)  That there are people who want their goddess-worship, or their crystal-waving Craft, but they want it to be normal - congregational, weekly meetings, an authority figure up in front, and so on.

And possibly there's not having a mental model for any other form of religion in there, and there's for other people a "I just want to Worship Teh Goddess, not be a WEIRDO" or whatever it is the model is for people who don't follow that particular structure.

And that's a thing that Satanists and their organisations tend not to coddle: there's no common 'I just want to worship Satan, not be a WEIRDO' logic, which means that the ... more mainstreamed sorts can easily feel nothing in common with them, I suspect.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
8 Replies
2695 Views
Last post October 10, 2011, 06:50:50 pm
by Setnusutekh
20 Replies
2679 Views
Last post September 30, 2014, 10:55:42 pm
by sailor
0 Replies
801 Views
Last post March 01, 2017, 10:03:11 pm
by SunflowerP
9 Replies
2910 Views
Last post October 25, 2019, 02:35:12 am
by MadZealot
4 Replies
1211 Views
Last post July 08, 2020, 11:23:35 am
by Noctua

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 62
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall