collapse

Author Topic: The Atlantic Religion  (Read 8655 times)

Shakas

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 71
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2014, 01:50:10 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;148360
Since I started studying neo-paganism, whenever the "Roman religion"  was mentioned, it was always in negative terms. I have almost heard it all: it destroyed Celtic religion and  culture, isn't even Indo-European, practicing a Romano-Celtic syncretism can lead to a loss of celticness, and now we are informed that it was confused and disconnected from the "bloodline" and the land.

I swear, it's almost as bad as anti-Semitism, except it would have to be called anti-Italicism. If someone tells me Italian paganism was evil I shan't be surprised.

I don't care what era of paganism a person chooses to reconstruct, but when the decision is couched in anti-Italian phrases about finding a pure Celticness unpolluted by those alien Greco-Romans, I have issues.


Well, you have to admit, the Romans did go on one heck of a conquest bender there.  They didn't knock on the doors of the Gauls, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Jews, etc., etc., etc., and hand out leaflets inviting natives to the next Roman Ice Cream Social.  Veni, vidi, vici was pretty much the Roman Empire's corporate brand as well as modus operandi.  To their credit, the Romans were reasonably good (as conquerors go) about letting subject peoples keep their own culture and religion.  They even borrowed elements as they went (I needn't remind anyone here how Rome largely lifted its pantheon bodily from the conquered Greeks, filed the serial numbers off, and gave the deities Roman names).

So I don't believe there's anything unreasonable in wanting to reconstruct the religions of ancient Europe prior to Roman conquest, any more than there is in wanting to reconstruct native religions in the Americas prior to 1492, or the Roman pantheon itself prior to Christianization.

As for "bloodline of the land," I think that's more murky.  Certainly you could make a case that the Celts perceived their deities to be immanent in the land.

Now if this does turn into a hatred of all things Italian, then I think that's going too far.  And certainly paganism indigenous to Italy ought not be impugned.  And I do love Italian cuisine...

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2014, 02:24:01 pm »
Quote from: Shakas;148801
Well, you have to admit, the Romans did go on one heck of a conquest bender there.

 
It's also not as if they did it suddenly and with no history of conquest in Europe or the Middle East, though, so it seems weird to single out Rome for going a'conquering. Sure, Rome went further north than, say, Alexander the Great bothered to go. But you had plenty of smaller-scale group-conquering-group going on, so trying to nail down The Onesiest Truiest God Of This Square Mile seems like ultimately it's going to be a UPG party anyway.

And I mean, last time I asked Odin I got a story about Aesir coming up from northern India, so UPG only goes as far as you can trust the god telling you. ;P
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 11:56:24 am »
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;148589

 So I find your comments quite insulting!

 
What's insulting is accusing a country of animists of bringing about the deterioration of Paganism. What actually happened was everyone chose to become a Christian.

Atlantean Perspective

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2014, 06:49:11 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;149087
What's insulting is accusing a country of animists of bringing about the deterioration of Paganism. What actually happened was everyone chose to become a Christian.

 
The Roman Empire was a cultural franchise which exceeded the borders of the Italic peninsula. The Roman Emperors demanded worship of their genii as gods, and the Empire tried to absorb the pagan religions of their conquered territories by reinventing them to fit the official model. This process simply transferred to Christianisation, particularly after the codification of Imperial law by Theodosius I & II... 'Rome' destroyed paganism by absorbing religious fads in order to bolster the secular power-base - at the end you simply cannot identify it with 'animism', even though this was the original religion of Italic Europeans before the Olympians moved in. The 'Lares' were the core focus of domestic worship, after all ...

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2014, 10:09:14 pm »
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149325
The Roman Empire was a cultural franchise which exceeded the borders of the Italic peninsula. The Roman Emperors demanded worship of their genii as gods, and the Empire tried to absorb the pagan religions of their conquered territories by reinventing them to fit the official model. This process simply transferred to Christianisation, particularly after the codification of Imperial law by Theodosius I & II... 'Rome' destroyed paganism by absorbing religious fads in order to bolster the secular power-base - at the end you simply cannot identify it with 'animism', even though this was the original religion of Italic Europeans before the Olympians moved in. The 'Lares' were the core focus of domestic worship, after all ...

Um. Actually. You're completely ignoring that conquest and expansion were a part of life for many ancient cultures, not just the Romans. Also that Rome had its own pantheon aside from simply "absorbing religious fads" (a very insulting phrasing for any of our Roman recons; I wish Castus were still practicing Religio Roma, because he could explain this much better than I), and that the rise of Christianity didn't occur until Rome was in a decline, and...well, most of the basics of the subject.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10086
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 225
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2014, 07:23:12 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;149338
Um. Actually. You're completely ignoring that conquest and expansion were a part of life for many ancient cultures, not just the Romans. Also that Rome had its own pantheon....

He seems to be ignoring everything that does not fit the narrative he wants.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Atlantean Perspective

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2014, 09:15:02 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;149338
Um. Actually. You're completely ignoring that conquest and expansion were a part of life for many ancient cultures, not just the Romans. Also that Rome had its own pantheon aside from simply "absorbing religious fads" (a very insulting phrasing for any of our Roman recons; I wish Castus were still practicing Religio Roma, because he could explain this much better than I), and that the rise of Christianity didn't occur until Rome was in a decline, and...well, most of the basics of the subject.

 
Nope - the Romans just did it better and imposed their own version of Greek religion on the Hellenised world! The Italic pantheon just kept changing - especially in the Imperial era. It largely gave up state religion after the late Republican Era when it began deifying Emperors and absorbing mystery cults, and then rediscovered it under Constantine. 'Absorbing religious fads' is exactly what happened, and I do not think any historian worth their salt would argue with that. It simply cannot be insulting, except perhaps to 'Roman recons' who specifically believe, say, the 2ndC BCE model, or maybe those 'dirty splitters' who followed the 3rdC CE model - curse them! :whis:
Actually, you can read about these complexities of Roman and Greek religion across various eras on my blog, so why not take a dive?

Atlantean Perspective

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2014, 09:45:03 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;149348
He seems to be ignoring everything that does not fit the narrative he wants.

 
Respectfully, this is not true. Please read the blog:
http://atlanticreligion.com/


Many thanks for you feedback :-D

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4782
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 650
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2014, 09:57:48 pm »
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149936
Actually, you can read about these complexities of Roman and Greek religion across various eras on my blog, so why not take a dive?

 
Personally, as a general rule, I prefer to have conversations in one place.  If I have to go read your blog to talk to you, why would I want to talk to you?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2014, 11:09:39 pm »
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149936
Nope - the Romans just did it better and imposed their own version of Greek religion on the Hellenised world! The Italic pantheon just kept changing - especially in the Imperial era. It largely gave up state religion after the late Republican Era when it began deifying Emperors and absorbing mystery cults, and then rediscovered it under Constantine. 'Absorbing religious fads' is exactly what happened, and I do not think any historian worth their salt would argue with that. It simply cannot be insulting, except perhaps to 'Roman recons' who specifically believe, say, the 2ndC BCE model, or maybe those 'dirty splitters' who followed the 3rdC CE model - curse them! :whis:
Actually, you can read about these complexities of Roman and Greek religion across various eras on my blog, so why not take a dive?

 
By talking about "absorbing religious fads" instead of understanding that interacting cultures influenced each other, you're failing to understand how the spread of religion works. You're minimizing A. the importance of the religions that had an influence over the Roman empire, B. the complexities of human interaction, and C. the seriousness of Roman religious life. So I really don't need to read your blog to know that you're cherry-picking your data to fit your narrative. You're doing a very good job of making that clear here.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Castus

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Virginia
  • Posts: 794
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 66
    • View Profile
  • Religion: doo-doo-doo-dee-doo
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 12:33:30 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;149946
By talking about "absorbing religious fads" instead of understanding that interacting cultures influenced each other, you're failing to understand how the spread of religion works. You're minimizing A. the importance of the religions that had an influence over the Roman empire, B. the complexities of human interaction, and C. the seriousness of Roman religious life. So I really don't need to read your blog to know that you're cherry-picking your data to fit your narrative. You're doing a very good job of making that clear here.

 
All of my this.

catloverkid

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 29
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2014, 12:47:18 am »
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149936
'Absorbing religious fads' is exactly what happened, and I do not think any historian worth their salt would argue with that. It simply cannot be insulting, except perhaps to 'Roman recons' who specifically believe, say, the 2ndC BCE model, or maybe those 'dirty splitters' who followed the 3rdC CE model - curse them! :whis:

 
Two things:

a) no, they did not 'absorb religious fads' they accepted other people's religions as long as they paid lip service to the Roman pantheon too. It was far more complicated than that. That there was a cult of Isis in Pompeii doesn't mean there wasn't a temple to Jupiter. Accepting other religions does not mean you 'absorb religious fads'. I worship Norse gods; I'm not Norse. It's the same thing. Romans worshipping an Egyptian god doesn't mean they didn't have their own religion too.

b) By putting 'Roman recons' in quoteunquote marks you are being very insulting to Roman recons. The Roman religion was just as valid as any other and is just as valid and worthy of being reconstructed. Roman recons take their religion seriously and it's incredibly disrespectful to talk about them like that.
"Do the gods speak?"
"Do they ever stop?"

Castus

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Virginia
  • Posts: 794
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 66
    • View Profile
  • Religion: doo-doo-doo-dee-doo
Re: The Atlantic Religion
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2014, 01:21:25 am »
Quote from: Shakas;148801
(I needn't remind anyone here how Rome largely lifted its pantheon bodily from the conquered Greeks, filed the serial numbers off, and gave the deities Roman names).

Seeing as that is rather untrue, you may need to do some reminding. Not counting the important members of the Roman pantheon (as a whole, not just the Dii Consentes) who had no Greek origins, those who did evolved to have distinctly different cults and modes of worship; and even personalities. Springing immediately to mind is the difference between the Roman cult of Mars as an agricultural father-deity and protector of Rome, and the more extensively warlike cult of Ares. Or Venus as a mothering progenitor of the Roman race and then Aphordite the Cypriot sexpot (probably exaggerating as any Hellenic could tell you, but you get the point). A very nice example of the conscious difference between Roman and Greek practice was the cult of Saturn; who despite his 100% Roman "origins story" as King of Latium was worshiped almost entirely ritu Graeciae with the head uncovered or with a laurel crown instead of the traditional Roman manner of rites.
 
Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149325
The Roman Empire was a cultural franchise which exceeded the borders of the Italic peninsula. The Roman Emperors demanded worship of their genii as gods, and the Empire tried to absorb the pagan religions of their conquered territories by reinventing them to fit the official model. This process simply transferred to Christianisation, particularly after the codification of Imperial law by Theodosius I & II... 'Rome' destroyed paganism by absorbing religious fads in order to bolster the secular power-base - at the end you simply cannot identify it with 'animism', even though this was the original religion of Italic Europeans before the Olympians moved in. The 'Lares' were the core focus of domestic worship, after all ...

 What is this madness? The Emperors did not "demand" the worship of their genii as gods, and in fact they very rarely demanded the worship of any deity. Not, of course, that the genii quite counted as deities even though they maintained a strictly separate cult from that of the deified Emperors. And what, exactly, was the official model, if I may ask? Yes there was a specific set of state cults to different deities that when combined came close to something of a 'state religion' but for the most part the Religio Romana was (and is!) just a lot of different cults to different deities that bonded around common Roman civic culture and practices. I won't even address that nonsense about a secular power base, simply because it isn't true; and don't give me that animism stuff. Yes, a few non-Roman tribes were probably animist, but you can hardly say that the Etruscans worshiped tree spirits alone.

Quote from: Atlantean Perspective;149936
Nope - the Romans just did it better and imposed their own version of Greek religion on the Hellenised world! The Italic pantheon just kept changing - especially in the Imperial era. It largely gave up state religion after the late Republican Era when it began deifying Emperors and absorbing mystery cults, and then rediscovered it under Constantine. 'Absorbing religious fads' is exactly what happened, and I do not think any historian worth their salt would argue with that. It simply cannot be insulting, except perhaps to 'Roman recons' who specifically believe, say, the 2ndC BCE model, or maybe those 'dirty splitters' who followed the 3rdC CE model - curse them! :whis:

Excuse me? As if pantheons don't change? The Roman Empire was aggressively multicultural, I don't see how it is a bad thing or even remotely unusual that the popularity of certain cults and deities would rise and fall. While the 'state religion' did change after the Republican era with the rise of the Imperial cult and the cult of Roma (not to mention a rise in foreign cults which has been most spectacularly preserved in the Isis-devoted city of Pompeii) to say that state religion ended at any point up until the successors to Constantine -who was himself deified, and let's not forget Julian!- is to misunderstand the key role that the state cults played in maintaining the crucial Pax Deorum for the health and welfare of the Roman state.

Also, nice dig at cultores there. Very classy.

...not.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
9 Replies
6254 Views
Last post April 07, 2017, 05:57:02 am
by Shewhoseeks
92 Replies
11737 Views
Last post January 08, 2013, 12:38:24 pm
by randomheathen
5 Replies
1870 Views
Last post August 26, 2011, 02:46:24 am
by Vella Malachite
66 Replies
12429 Views
Last post July 26, 2011, 04:18:58 pm
by DashesAgainst
0 Replies
947 Views
Last post November 22, 2012, 11:51:19 am
by mlr52

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 38
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 4
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall