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Author Topic: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)  (Read 35528 times)

GoldenSiren

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #165 on: June 29, 2012, 08:16:23 pm »
Quote from: xmoonlitreveriex;62172
Will do!

 
Awesome :D: maybe a thread should be started on it! hmmm... If not, here always works, since it's a trolled thread anyways :p
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Aryel32

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #166 on: June 29, 2012, 08:56:03 pm »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;62174
Awesome :D: maybe a thread should be started on it! hmmm... If not, here always works, since it's a trolled thread anyways :p

 
lmfao. Trolled thread, very nice. hahaha
I'm just severely fascinated with the concept of working with Lucifer/Prometheus and Hecate. I'm thinking of possibly meditating on it tonight.
(It's been rather noisy where I'm at lately. I live right on the main road and a freak storm blew through last night trashing the neighborhood)

xmoonlitreveriex

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #167 on: June 29, 2012, 09:04:23 pm »
Quote from: Aryel32;62178
lmfao. Trolled thread, very nice. hahaha
I'm just severely fascinated with the concept of working with Lucifer/Prometheus and Hecate. I'm thinking of possibly meditating on it tonight.
(It's been rather noisy where I'm at lately. I live right on the main road and a freak storm blew through last night trashing the neighborhood)

 
I wish you the best! If you happen to come up with any other questions about working with him, I made a separate thread about my faith, so feel free to drop by or send me a PM if you'd rather keep it private;)

GoldenSiren

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #168 on: June 29, 2012, 09:06:34 pm »
Quote from: xmoonlitreveriex;62181
I wish you the best! If you happen to come up with any other questions about working with him, I made a separate thread about my faith, so feel free to drop by or send me a PM if you'd rather keep it private;)

 
Did you really? I'll be checking it out then :D: I'm more familiar with Satanists than Luciferians, so I'm always curious about your particular faith.
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Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #169 on: June 29, 2012, 11:13:27 pm »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;62148
I just realized how much this thread drifted :p okay, back on topic.


1. Thread drift happens.

2. 'Back on topic' would mean back to the discussion of *how* to raise demons, not whether.


Quote

So, we concluded that trying to summon the Devil or any demons isn't a good idea, for a variety of reasons. Now, what would be some good alternatives?


Who concluded that?  Some people agreed with each other that summoning was icky and didn't make sense, that bullying demons was wrong, etc.  Nobody has been discussing the actual paradigm in which raising demons is a sensible thing to do, and a viable skill to learn.  Just transferring the sexy bits to paradigms which were never meant to hold them and merrily setting fire to the straw man.

Honestly, desire, force, command, discipline, and dangerous activities are not automatically  bad and to be avoided.  There is a long history in the Western Magical Tradition in which having the strength of will to command another being earns that being's respect, not their hatred.  Commonly, demons ignore those unfit to command them but grant respect to those who know more, can do more, and are not afraid.  

There is more than money to be gained by interaction with demons.  Money, love, and material goods are generally considered shallow and immature in this context.  (and there are definitely better ways to get all three)

Absent
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Darkhawk

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2012, 12:26:57 am »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;62148
So, we concluded that trying to summon the Devil or any demons isn't a good idea, for a variety of reasons. Now, what would be some good alternatives?

 
There are no alternatives to some form of "doing the work required to achieve your goals".
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2012, 12:28:48 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62194
Honestly, desire, force, command, discipline, and dangerous activities are not automatically  bad and to be avoided.  There is a long history in the Western Magical Tradition in which having the strength of will to command another being earns that being's respect, not their hatred.  Commonly, demons ignore those unfit to command them but grant respect to those who know more, can do more, and are not afraid.

 
And actually learning how to manage pulling that kinda shit off is a form of doing some work.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Aryel32

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2012, 01:43:39 am »
Quote from: xmoonlitreveriex;62181
I wish you the best! If you happen to come up with any other questions about working with him, I made a separate thread about my faith, so feel free to drop by or send me a PM if you'd rather keep it private;)

 
I saw the thread and I "subscribed" so I can keep up to date to any further developments. thanks!

GoldenSiren

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2012, 03:20:26 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62194
1. Thread drift happens.

2. 'Back on topic' would mean back to the discussion of *how* to raise demons, not whether.


1. I know, I was just acknowledging that it did drift.

2. I meant... --sigh-- I stand corrected. When I said "back on topic" I was referring to after the part where Johnny Depp was mentioned, when I asked whether, instead of the "topic" as in the title of the thread. I apologize.  

Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62194
Who concluded that?  Some people agreed with each other that summoning was icky and didn't make sense, that bullying demons was wrong, etc.  Nobody has been discussing the actual paradigm in which raising demons is a sensible thing to do, and a viable skill to learn.  Just transferring the sexy bits to paradigms which were never meant to hold them and merrily setting fire to the straw man.
Okay... then can you explain the "the actual paradigm in which raising demons is a sensible thing to do, and a viable skill to learn" bit please? I obviously don't know anything about it.

Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62194
Honestly, desire, force, command, discipline, and dangerous activities are not automatically  bad and to be avoided.  There is a long history in the Western Magical Tradition in which having the strength of will to command another being earns that being's respect, not their hatred.  Commonly, demons ignore those unfit to command them but grant respect to those who know more, can do more, and are not afraid.
 Where do you get this information? I'd like to read about it. I'm stumbling around in the dark here, apparently.

Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62194
There is more than money to be gained by interaction with demons.  Money, love, and material goods are generally considered shallow and immature in this context.  (and there are definitely better ways to get all three)

Absent
Okay, what are some?

Quote from: Darkhawk;62199
There are no alternatives to some form of "doing the work required to achieve your goals".

 I am aware of this also. I'm just trying to cover as many bases off the top of my head as possible. Not succeeding, apparently, but still.
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RandallS

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2012, 08:09:49 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;62200
And actually learning how to manage pulling that kinda shit off is a form of doing some work.

::nods:: Quite a bit of work, actually.
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bluewave193

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Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2012, 02:55:44 pm »
Quote from: NuklearKrisis;59619
I meant a horrible death, like being murdered in a horrible way. In addition to your life being taken away by the demon guaranteeing it in the time line of your success and could be anytime; ten years or ten days. Plus your death requires you to hand your soul to the demon and you go to hell and hes complete control over you forever; I read that somewhere. But something like that, or basically you agree the demon controls what happens to you versus a normal death, whether it be a freak accident or natural causes. But yeah Im stupid, DEATH is not scary, especially by a weird demon creature. Lets see, the demon makes you rich and then he tears your arms off (the deal), I guess that might be worst than death. Drops a bowling on your head, or maybe all the expensive stuff you buy just explodes randomly. I know, you can't watch a movie without it playing in reverse, THEN your TV explodes..haha.  

I am getting the sense everyone here thinks I am a stupid toll or whatever. So just delete this thread, sorry I joined and asked questions about the subject. I won't post anymore threads or ask anymore questions. My question is stupid I guess, but it would have been cool if some black magic dude just busted out, and gave me all kinds advice and expensive grimoires to buy. Like buy a cool black robe and a mask, forge a sword, make the seal on the ground, learn Latin, kill a chicken etc etc. This forum is probably not the place to be asking this anyway.

Since joining this thread I have learned more about magic and what is required to use it (I do not use it myself...yet). The one thing that has been universal in my leanings is that the props are not necessary, at least in the beginning. Magic (of any kind) comes from within you. So although you are looking for the ritualistic answer, a spell or chant that will summon a demon to get you what you want, you must first look inside yourself.

Melamphoros

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2012, 03:09:27 pm »
Quote from: bluewave193;62263
Since joining this thread I have learned more about magic and what is required to use it (I do not use it myself...yet). The one thing that has been universal in my leanings is that the props are not necessary, at least in the beginning. Magic (of any kind) comes from within you. So although you are looking for the ritualistic answer, a spell or chant that will summon a demon to get you what you want, you must first look inside yourself.

 
The guy who started this thread admitted to trolling and was promptly banned.  I doubt he is seriously* reading any replies.

*although reading them while laughing is a bit more likely.


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Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #177 on: June 30, 2012, 04:35:59 pm »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;62221
.  

 Okay... then can you explain the "the actual paradigm in which raising demons is a sensible thing to do, and a viable skill to learn" bit please? I obviously don't know anything about it.


More of my answer will follow, in the 'what are some' part.  For here, though - raising demons to do something is a sensible thing to do if you need something done for which demons are especially equipped or skilled.  What this is varies by time and technology, but the essence of magic has always been to get what you want.  (this does not rule out altruism - wanting something for someone else, wanting to heal or protect someone, is still 'what you want'.  You want to get what you want as much as somebody who wants a promotion).  There have been times in history in which demons were the only recourse.  

Some people are put off by the Abrahamic aspects, but in a time and on a subject where the church is the most powerful and the most knowledgeable authority it makes sense to use the dominant system to give you control over the lesser.  Somewhat cynical, and I doubt most magicians of the time were 'good Christians', but they knew how to use what was available.  They could work the system to their advantage.


Quote
 Where do you get this information? I'd like to read about it. I'm stumbling around in the dark here, apparently.


It is sort of distilled from years/decades of reading.  Medieval literature, some sponsored by the church, some hidden from it, purportedly 'ancient' grimoires (the falsifying of which is an art-form in itself), works of philosophy which touch upon the names and powers of certain entities, other works which mention the strengths and weaknesses of those named entities - basically the jigsaw puzzle of the curious mind.  It resolves itself into identifiable patterns for whatever subject percolates long enough.

You could start by reading the works of Dr. Dee, H. Cornelius Agrippa, Pythagoras, Aleister Crowley.  If you do that at reputable sites on the net you will wind up going down a rabbit-hole of links far more useful than the stacks of the library I first read them in.

 
Quote
Okay, what are some?


Some of these are no longer relevant in the modern world, but most still have useful applications.

-finding things:  not your car keys or your lost jewelry.  Lost books, artifacts of power, places that may be hidden or disguised.  It would be worth it, to some, to send a demon to fetch the 'original' Necronomicon, on the theory that it did exist and Lovecraft was simply repeating what he had heard.  Or to confirm that it did not exist, but that this other legendary text did.

-translating:  there are things in the world which have never been translated into modern language reliably.  You could call a demon to translate Linear A, you could get one to tell you where the vowels go in Ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, or any other language in which the habit was to leave them out.  You could understand with accuracy things which modern scholars are fuzzy on or have no clue about at all.

-building things:  this one is not as important these days, but building large edifices that were not going to collapse the first time they were run into by a donkey cart was extremely important in ancient times.  King Solomon used demons in construction quite openly.

-knowledge:  in all its forms and about everything, for those who are greedy that way.  Some people can feed on knowledge forever without needing anything but subsistence level everything else.

-money, lust, and greed:  because, y'know, even magicians are human.


Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #178 on: June 30, 2012, 04:36:34 pm »
Quote from: bluewave193;62263
Since joining this thread I have learned more about magic and what is required to use it (I do not use it myself...yet). The one thing that has been universal in my leanings is that the props are not necessary, at least in the beginning. Magic (of any kind) comes from within you. So although you are looking for the ritualistic answer, a spell or chant that will summon a demon to get you what you want, you must first look inside yourself.

 
This is only really true in a limited set of modern magical systems.  In other systems props are essential.  You find this in most of the more formal ones, but also in much of folk magic.  Use the right ingredient, the right type of wood, put the fish in the right spot, and there you go.  Recipes for spells do not require any particular skill or talent on the part of the caster, only a faithful following of said recipe.  

Some, mostly modern, magic is kind of like a soup or stew, where you can substitute anything and keep throwing ingredients in until it smells right.  Others are like baking, where you can really screw things up by messing with any part of the recipe without plenty of knowledge and experience to back you up.  Yet other magic requires both an extremely strong will and all the exact props in order to bring it off while remaining safe and relatively sane.

There is even bottled magic, a perfectly respectable way to cast spells - candles are blessed or kits are made by a witch, santero, curandero, (or other magic user who serves for money/ just plain serves) then sold or given to the person who needs it.  The magic in these cases is inherent in the props or empowered by their maker.  Nothing is required from the purchaser except proper triggering.

It is common (almost cliche) in modern discussion to declare that magic comes only from within, comes from prayer or interaction with entities, can be done with no props or ritual, is like a wish, depends solely on intent, etc.  That any ingredient can be substituted for, basically, one the caster likes better or can find more easily.  It is also common to stretch the facts of the results or lack of them the way some people stretch divination results, to make it seem like something has worked in some subtle or hidden way when it has simply failed.

I know that, in a more ballanced form, these common beliefs can be true, and magic can be done instinctively.  It's just that too often that's a cop-out for 'I don't want to do the work so I will teach you not to do it either so my lazyness is justified.  It is important to learn the hard stuff first, so that one can cut corners mindfully.  Discipline, then twistyness.

*gets off soapbox and carts it away under coat*

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

catja6

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Re: Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)
« Reply #179 on: June 30, 2012, 04:47:17 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;62277
...

 
*applauds*  Seriously, all of this.  I like your soapboxes.  :)

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