Raising the Devil and or demons for money (books and methods)

[Aryel32]

Y'know, it's funny that you mention that because I've come across a few people who work with Hecate who have been introduced to Lu in order to learn something or another that may benefit their work with Hecate.

REALLLLY? How interesting. Do you have any further details to share or do I just need to go into a meditative state and say hello to Lucifer myself to find out??

Lu tends to favor the deity equivalent of the cold shoulder, actually

How so? No rugs from under your feet? No sledgehammers to the head? No crazy drama that springs up, rips you apart then disappears as if it never happened?
You don't have to scratch your head when odd things happen and wonder if its your deity meddling in your life trying to teach you something?

He didn't want to rule heaven, he doesn't even particularly enjoy his role as the leader of the rebellion, but he rebelled against what he saw as YHWH's tyranny.

LOL, I totally believe that.
 

Christian. I've briefly read up on the Roman god of the same name, but from what I've seen he's really only mentioned in relation to Stregheria. The literature isn't very much to go on, IMO.

 
Yeah, I've noticed that too. Other than the Charle Lleland story of Aradia, there isn't that much out there that talks much about her (or her family) leaving me to believe that that particular tradition is completely Oral.

Coming from a Christian standpoint of the Luciferian Myth, having fallen from heaven, what do you think he's doing now? The bible says that he's in hell preparing for the day where his punishment sentence will end and he'll come up from hell guns blazing and humanity will suffer for it. What's your stand on this interpretation?

[Aryel32]

Truer words haven't been spoken. The god/desses we follow DO have their flaws. They have their own wills and personalities and methods of bettering their followers... and I love it. I love how different and personal paganism is. Everyone has their own stories and aspects, and the gods are very ALIVE to me. More real.
.....
Side note: Can any pagan gods be considered "socially acceptable"? depending on location, perhaps. And the society.

Each myth of each Deity has a unique spin on it. Look at deities with similar backgrounds and "specific flavors" if you would. Their stories are so different and varied. Its beautiful and fascinating
I agree that because of all of this, the Gods are very alive and real.
Everyone has their own experiences with the Gods as well.

my response to your side note: *snicker*

[xmoonlitreveriex]

Truer words haven't been spoken. The god/desses we follow DO have their flaws. They have their own wills and personalities and methods of bettering their followers... and I love it. I love how different and personal paganism is. Everyone has their own stories and aspects, and the gods are very ALIVE to me. More real.

As for what you've been telling me about Lucifer. . . I can actually understand why he'd be selfish, prideful, and manipulative. His name has been slandered and he's been shunned and hated by thousands, thanks to Yahweh. It's understandable that he wouldn't spend time dancing around and playing nice. Now, to each his/her own, but I know firsthand all about the tyranny of the Christian god. That's one of the reasons I chose not to follow him. So I can empathize. Not PITY, mind you (I have this feeling Lucifer wouldn't appreciate being pitied just a hunch). I can respect him. There is real strength in a god that can hold out against all that hate.

Honestly, almost all of our gods have felt the sting of Christian hate. Some more than others, but it's still there. It's a sad reality, and I hope it ends someday.

 
I wouldn't put all the blame on YHWH. While Christian scripture does paint a rather nasty picture of Lu (or 'Satan', as the inclusion of the title Lucifer is a mistranslation, and even moreso an oversimplification of the Judaic 'Ha-Satan'*) we have to remember that it is a direct result of human manipulation--biblical literature has been modified to fit mortal prejudices and biases too. While I wouldn't defend YHWH as being innocent of all his crimes, I also think his portrayal in scripture isn't entirely correct.

I might've raged at him, probably did, back when I was still bitter and angry at my birth religion, but...as crazy as it sounds, working with Lu has taught me that there are a lot of similarities between my faith now as a devotee of his, and the Christian faith. Interfaith networking is actually a growing part of my work with him, and I've had some very insightful conversations with other Christians who follow my blogs. Lu really isn't the opposite of Jesus, or leading some sort of 'Reverse Christian' movement.

Side note: Can any pagan gods be considered "socially acceptable"? depending on location, perhaps. And the society.

Well, from my experience, within the pagan community there are an awful lot of people who balk at my god/faith, but have no issues with other gods. Granted, a lot of it is a direct consequence of misrepresentation and the desire to separate themselves or paganism as a whole from anything 'satanic'. So I guess it depends what society we're talking about here ;]



(*I can't even count how many times I've had people try to invalidate my whole belief system by mentioning how Lucifer is a mistranslation. I'm well aware of this fact, and that when used in Isaiah it is in reference to a mortal king, where original reads as 'Helel ben shahar', stemming from Caananite mythos. I use 'Lucifer' as a title, not a name.)

[xmoonlitreveriex]

REALLLLY? How interesting. Do you have any further details to share or do I just need to go into a meditative state and say hello to Lucifer myself to find out??

I don't know the details, but you could peruse this blog for more information. Its the only ones I remember off the top of my head that mentions working with both Hekate and Lu:
The Flaming Thyrsos(Note that they refer to Lu as Prometheus, and it is only my UPG that links the two. Make of it what you will)
There was another blog called Blue Druid, but it seems to have been deleted =[

How so? No rugs from under your feet? No sledgehammers to the head? No crazy drama that springs up, rips you apart then disappears as if it never happened?
You don't have to scratch your head when odd things happen and wonder if its your deity meddling in your life trying to teach you something?

Nah, Lu is kind enough to warn me when he's going to pull anything like that, but it doesn't stop him from disappearing off the radar while I flail around trying to cope with whatever it is he sent me to deal with. But this is because he doesn't want to influence my end decision, or so I'm led to believe ;]



 

 

Coming from a Christian standpoint of the Luciferian Myth, having fallen from heaven, what do you think he's doing now? The bible says that he's in hell preparing for the day where his punishment sentence will end and he'll come up from hell guns blazing and humanity will suffer for it. What's your stand on this interpretation?

He fell to Earth, as I understand it, and come judgement day he will then be sent to Hell. I don't claim to know his plans, I just know that he does seem to be playing some sort of spiritual chessgame with his devotees. I know he uses me to further his own plans somehow, but I don't know what those plans are.

[GoldenSiren]

I wouldn't put all the blame on YHWH. While Christian scripture does paint a rather nasty picture of Lu (or 'Satan', as the inclusion of the title Lucifer is a mistranslation, and even moreso an oversimplification of the Judaic 'Ha-Satan'*) we have to remember that it is a direct result of human manipulation--biblical literature has been modified to fit mortal prejudices and biases too. While I wouldn't defend YHWH as being innocent of all his crimes, I also think his portrayal in scripture isn't entirely correct.

Oh I don't put all the blame on him either (reading back it sounded like that, sorry, lack of sleep strikes again) I meant and should've said that all the hate was from the human viewpoint on Yahweh, and how he regards Lucifer and Hell etc... *yawns heavily* I apologize for the confusion.

I might've raged at him, probably did, back when I was still bitter and angry at my birth religion, but...as crazy as it sounds, working with Lu has taught me that there are a lot of similarities between my faith now as a devotee of his, and the Christian faith. Interfaith networking is actually a growing part of my work with him, and I've had some very insightful conversations with other Christians who follow my blogs. Lu really isn't the opposite of Jesus, or leading some sort of 'Reverse Christian' movement.

I didn't think he was the opposite. Just different and probably more than a little misinterpreted. And it's cool that you've became more tolerant and understanding of Christianity I try to be open-minded about everything I come across, but some things are harder than others, I'll willingly admit.

Well, from my experience, within the pagan community there are an awful lot of people who balk at my god/faith, but have no issues with other gods. Granted, a lot of it is a direct consequence of misrepresentation and the desire to separate themselves or paganism as a whole from anything 'satanic'. So I guess it depends what society we're talking about here ;]


(*I can't even count how many times I've had people try to invalidate my whole belief system by mentioning how Lucifer is a mistranslation. I'm well aware of this fact, and that when used in Isaiah it is in reference to a mortal king, where original reads as 'Helel ben shahar', stemming from Caananite mythos. I use 'Lucifer' as a title, not a name.)

True. Admittedly I balked at this whole thread when it started, due to the whole raising the devil stuff + Christian background + my own trying to move away from it. I've never hated Christianity, but I was more interested in other things, and just wanted to forget about my not-so-happy-past involving it. After reading through the trollage though, my initial hesitation was gone. Just curiosity is left now so I think it worked out quite nicely.

[xmoonlitreveriex]

Oh I don't put all the blame on him either (reading back it sounded like that, sorry, lack of sleep strikes again) I meant and should've said that all the hate was from the human viewpoint on Yahweh, and how he regards Lucifer and Hell etc... *yawns heavily* I apologize for the confusion.

 I didn't think he was the opposite. Just different and probably more than a little misinterpreted. And it's cool that you've became more tolerant and understanding of Christianity I try to be open-minded about everything I come across, but some things are harder than others, I'll willingly admit.

It's fine, I didn't think you were implying anything like that--I guess i'm just so used to having to defend myself against those more common arguments that it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction to include more info than necessary when talking about my faith or Lu.  I've had overwhelmingly positive responses both here and on my blogs, which I'm grateful for, but i'm still aware of the fact that a lot of people don't regard my faith so open-mindedly. Thanks for being so respectful, it does give me hope about the way Luciferianism and Lu are headed in regards to being more accepted/tolerated.

[Darkhawk]

I'm touchy about how Christianity equates anything about the left hand to be Satanic or otherwise evil. Hence "Left hand path" = Satanic path, or Path to Hell, in their eyes.

 
IIRC, the origin of the term is Tantric.

[Darkhawk]

Well, from my experience, within the pagan community there are an awful lot of people who balk at my god/faith, but have no issues with other gods. Granted, a lot of it is a direct consequence of misrepresentation and the desire to separate themselves or paganism as a whole from anything 'satanic'. So I guess it depends what society we're talking about here ;]

 
There are a lot of pagans who have a Fear Of The Abrahamic Penis.  Female powers from out of that mythos, those are okay, but....

[xmoonlitreveriex]

There are a lot of pagans who have a Fear Of The Abrahamic Penis.  Female powers from out of that mythos, those are okay, but....

 
Yeah, ChristoPagans in general tend to get a lot of flack too. Sometimes I don't quite know what bothers people more--that my path has 'satanic' elements, or that my influence comes largely from Christian mythos :confused:

[GoldenSiren]

It's fine, I didn't think you were implying anything like that--I guess i'm just so used to having to defend myself against those more common arguments that it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction to include more info than necessary when talking about my faith or Lu.  I've had overwhelmingly positive responses both here and on my blogs, which I'm grateful for, but i'm still aware of the fact that a lot of people don't regard my faith so open-mindedly. Thanks for being so respectful, it does give me hope about the way Luciferianism and Lu are headed in regards to being more accepted/tolerated.

 
 No problem it's totally understandable. A lot of us have felt the blows of narrow-mindedness time and time again, from both Christians and non-Christians alike. Honestly, I hope religions such as yours, along with all kinds of faiths, are better received in the future. All this phobia about faith is wildly unnecessary, in my opinion. Now, it would be completely different story if people were trying to bring back human sacrifice or something like that, but that is a whole 'nother ballpark. As for who follows what god/dess. . . I think it's all good stuff. Fun to learn about, and fun to hear all the funny stories and better understand the god/desses personalities, all of it. ^.^ and thank YOU for deciding to open up and tell me and the other readers/commenters more about your faith. It's been very enlightening to me, and has taught me so much in a few posts that I probably wouldn't have learned from weeks of sifting through information. It's really been a great time! :

[GoldenSiren]

IIRC, the origin of the term is Tantric.

 Really? Can you elaborate more on that, please? I've never heard the term before :p

[monsnoleedra]

IIRC, the origin of the term is Tantric.

What always intrigues me is that many equate Tantric to Buddhist practices only.  Yet there are tantric practices that are based on a Tibetian form of Buddhism practice, some on the Hindu practices and pantheon.   Yet most of them still for many years seemed to fall beneath the Mystical Orient mindset.  I know there are points where Kali falls into the lefthand path.

 I vaguely recall that Helena Petrovna Blavatshy in her works The Secret Doctrine about Root Races fell beneath the Tantric mysticism practices as she claimed to have been enlightened by a Monk in Tibet if I recall correctly.  Though usage of the term seems to go back to a A. P. Sinnett in his book Esoteric Buddhism.

[Darkhawk]

Really? Can you elaborate more on that, please? I've never heard the term before :p

 
My very, very vague understanding (I have not studied or researched this) is that Tantric paths are divided into "left-hand" and "right-hand" types.

The right-hand path is the mainstream and more conformist mystical tradition: asceticism, abstinence, meditation, adherence to strict food limitations, and so on.  Basically, the idea is to pursue enlightenment by avoiding things that are temptations to sin or deviance, or upset the status quo.

The left-hand path is engaged with things forbidden by mainstream Hindu practice.  It also can include things like eating meat, having unsanctioned sex, physical contact with people of the untouchable caste (including sexual contact with people of the untouchable caste), handling human waste, and other stuff that's taboo.  The idea, as I understand it, is that the power imparted to something by the taboo is also an illusion (standard Hindu "all is maya") and by confronting taboo behaviour directly one can break through those illusions.  (Wikipedia also says that some teachers explicitly say that one can pursue left-hand Tantra without actually breaking the taboos of orthodox Hinduism.)

Westerners who hear 'Tantra' mostly think 'kinky sex magic' or 'orgies! woohoo!', and every Western Tantric discussion I have seen has been in some way focused on sex.  Which is a single thread even of the five taboos associated with the practice (the others mentioned in Wikipedia are all food-related), and only relevant to left-hand versions - and which grandly misses the point in any case.

[monsnoleedra]

My very, very vague understanding (I have not studied or researched this) is that Tantric paths are divided into "left-hand" and "right-hand" types.

The right-hand path is the mainstream and more conformist mystical tradition: asceticism, abstinence, meditation, adherence to strict food limitations, and so on.  Basically, the idea is to pursue enlightenment by avoiding things that are temptations to sin or deviance, or upset the status quo.

The left-hand path is engaged with things forbidden by mainstream Hindu practice.  It also can include things like eating meat, having unsanctioned sex, physical contact with people of the untouchable caste (including sexual contact with people of the untouchable caste), handling human waste, and other stuff that's taboo.  The idea, as I understand it, is that the power imparted to something by the taboo is also an illusion (standard Hindu "all is maya") and by confronting taboo behaviour directly one can break through those illusions.  (Wikipedia also says that some teachers explicitly say that one can pursue left-hand Tantra without actually breaking the taboos of orthodox Hinduism.)

Westerners who hear 'Tantra' mostly think 'kinky sex magic' or 'orgies! woohoo!', and every Western Tantric discussion I have seen has been in some way focused on sex.  Which is a single thread even of the five taboos associated with the practice (the others mentioned in Wikipedia are all food-related), and only relevant to left-hand versions - and which grandly misses the point in any case.

 
For being very very vague it sure matches up with what I know of it.  I agee to that it almost seems universal that when one speaks on tantric it goes to sex.

About the only thing I would add is my understanding it is also about experiencing them but not allowing them to dominate nor surrendering to them.  Sort of experiment in them to discover thier truths but not giving into them at the expense of the self.

[Valentine]

My very, very vague understanding (I have not studied or researched this) is that Tantric paths are divided into "left-hand" and "right-hand" types.

The right-hand path is the mainstream and more conformist mystical tradition: asceticism, abstinence, meditation, adherence to strict food limitations, and so on.  Basically, the idea is to pursue enlightenment by avoiding things that are temptations to sin or deviance, or upset the status quo.

The left-hand path is engaged with things forbidden by mainstream Hindu practice.  It also can include things like eating meat, having unsanctioned sex, physical contact with people of the untouchable caste (including sexual contact with people of the untouchable caste), handling human waste, and other stuff that's taboo.  The idea, as I understand it, is that the power imparted to something by the taboo is also an illusion (standard Hindu "all is maya") and by confronting taboo behaviour directly one can break through those illusions.  (Wikipedia also says that some teachers explicitly say that one can pursue left-hand Tantra without actually breaking the taboos of orthodox Hinduism.)

Westerners who hear 'Tantra' mostly think 'kinky sex magic' or 'orgies! woohoo!', and every Western Tantric discussion I have seen has been in some way focused on sex.  Which is a single thread even of the five taboos associated with the practice (the others mentioned in Wikipedia are all food-related), and only relevant to left-hand versions - and which grandly misses the point in any case.

 
Also, for those playing along at home!
Left-hand/right-hand terminology also has roots in traditional Kabbalah--the tree of the sefirot is often presented as a sort of universal human body, Adam Kadmon, and on that presentation of the diagram, there are two "arms"--the left, Binah-Gevurah-Hod, and the right, Hokhmah-Chesed-Netzach.  Gevurah, or Din, is called the "left hand" in some traditions, and relates to the capacity/idea not just of drawing borders or exerting power, but of force and wrath, whereas Chesed, the "right hand," is about mercy and welcome and openness.  Left is coded as dark, and right as light; left is hidden, right is visible.  While they're both part of the divine and of the structure of the world, the "left hand" goes to those darker places of burning power, and the "right hand" is much more cuddly.
Remember, also, that a lot of these traditions come from a time and (many) locations where for basic purposes, the left hand was not just ritually unclean--you don't use it to eat, or to greet, or any of it--but physically, because it was the hand used to wipe after using the loo, so the right would stay clean to be used for other things, and this was very important in places that did not have fancy sinks and soaps and all to get clean.  So it's often not about "left" as inherently evil, but as inherently profane and literally dirty.  They're concerns that are of less weight now with modern sanitation.