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Author Topic: Questions on choosing the right spell  (Read 4167 times)

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2012, 03:16:14 pm »
Quote from: fallenangel;42764
I am VERY new to spell casting...and in my life, if it CAN go wrong...it WILL. I am very hesitant to try anything that has more than three lines of instructions, including the materials list.

That said, how do you go about choosing the right spell?  Especially if there are quite a number of them that will achieve the same purpose?

Thanks so much for your help.


For me that would be a sticky question to try and answer. In your shoes I would first decide which path to follow regarding practicing magic. Be it Pagan, Wiccan, Chaos or whatever, only you can answer that because only you know what you're most comfortable with. Once you've made that decision the hows of spell casting kind of fall into place.

Regardless of your path, the rules of magic are universal. You have to be trying to accomplish something that follow the laws of physics, meaning, you cannot create, you can only manipulate. No matter how hard we try, we'll never be able to blast lightening bolts from our fingertips. We can however climb a tall building, leap off, flap our arms and fly,,,,, as long as the only direction we wish to travel is straight down at a high velocity.

I do have a tip to spell casting, many of the books I've read state to think long and hard about what you really want. If your happiness is the ultimate goal but it takes many thing to create your happiness, you ask simply for happiness for yourself. All the parts needed to create this happiness will come about on their own.
 
In short, don't try a shotgun approach. Go directly to the heart of the matter and let the spell pick the pieces needed to accomplish the goal.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2012, 03:20:11 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;43042
Not every tradition has that carved-in-stone prohibition against harming others. Even many Wiccan groups consider a flat "harm none" to be emasculating the actual Wiccan Rede.

 
Chaos is the same way but it's also a personal choice. I see nothing good coming from causing someone harm just because they ticked me off. I however have zero problem recommending a nice jail cell for someone I know for fact manufactures meth and sells it. :whis:
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 07:50:14 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43340


Regardless of your path, the rules of magic are universal.


Some may be; your example probably is pretty universal.  Other rules are systemic and only work or need to be obeyed in their originating paradigm.

Quote from: Smokebender;43340
If your happiness is the ultimate goal but it takes many thing to create your happiness, you ask simply for happiness for yourself.


Ask who?  If one doesn't turn to deities or outside beings for magic there wouldn't seem to be anyone to ask.  Personally, I see magic more as deciding than asking.
 
Quote from: Smokebender;43340
 let the spell pick the pieces needed to accomplish the goal.


Could you elaborate?  I can't seem to parse this.  Normally, I pick the spell, including the pieces.  The spell itself is mostly non-sentient in my paradigm and thus incapable of picking anything.  I would be interested in trying to understand your concept.

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

fallenangel

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2012, 07:30:36 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43340
For me that would be a sticky question to try and answer. In your shoes I would first decide which path to follow regarding practicing magic. Be it Pagan, Wiccan, Chaos or whatever, only you can answer that because only you know what you're most comfortable with. Once you've made that decision the hows of spell casting kind of fall into place.

Regardless of your path, the rules of magic are universal. You have to be trying to accomplish something that follow the laws of physics, meaning, you cannot create, you can only manipulate. No matter how hard we try, we'll never be able to blast lightening bolts from our fingertips. We can however climb a tall building, leap off, flap our arms and fly,,,,, as long as the only direction we wish to travel is straight down at a high velocity.

I do have a tip to spell casting, many of the books I've read state to think long and hard about what you really want. If your happiness is the ultimate goal but it takes many thing to create your happiness, you ask simply for happiness for yourself. All the parts needed to create this happiness will come about on their own.
 
In short, don't try a shotgun approach. Go directly to the heart of the matter and let the spell pick the pieces needed to accomplish the goal.

 
Thank you....You are absolutely right, I DO need to decide on a path....and everything you have said makes sense.

fallenangel

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 07:35:41 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43341

 I see nothing good coming from causing someone harm just because they ticked me off. I however have zero problem recommending a nice jail cell for someone I know for fact manufactures meth and sells it. :whis:

 
For me, causing harm, DELIBERATE harm, to others is NOT an option...unless it is a DIRECT attack on one of my children.

I'm with you on the meth...and include ANY drugs in that scenario.

I believe that if you give someone enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves  with it...I have NO problems sitting back and watching the train derail.:)

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 09:57:27 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43382
Some may be; your example probably is pretty universal.  Other rules are systemic and only work or need to be obeyed in their originating paradigm.


It's my understanding that with magic, anything goes. One is free to ask, demand, will or instruct, depending on the system they have chosen whatever their heart desires as long as the goal is within the realm of possibility


Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43382
Ask who?  If one doesn't turn to deities or outside beings for magic there wouldn't seem to be anyone to ask.  Personally, I see magic more as deciding than asking.

Since the OP hasn't chosen a path as of yet, there is no one to ask, demand or instruct. Personally, I choose to will whatever my goal is.
 

Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43382
Could you elaborate?  I can't seem to parse this.  Normally, I pick the spell, including the pieces.  The spell itself is mostly non-sentient in my paradigm and thus incapable of picking anything.  I would be interested in trying to understand your concept.

Absent

Sure. Let's say I'm wishing to have a better income since that is one that many will seek. I believe I could do better if I were a competent auto mechanic than with my present job. The problem is, all I know about vehicles is one puts gasoline into them and they go. Rather than go the long winded route of finding out what classes are needed, how much it will cost, where I'll have to go to school at, how I'll support myself while in school, where I'll get the income to pay for the school  etc, I create a spell, sigil, whatever I choose that simply states, "I want to make my living as an auto mechanic".

Being an auto mechanic is within the realm of possibility. For the goal to come to fruition, all the above questions have to be answered.

I believe we all believe that our Gods, Deities, inner selves, whatever we believe in are omnipotent, thus we shouldn't have to treat them as if they may not know how to do things properly.

I think things get too obfuscated when we try and put to much detail into our plan. Things change by the moment so that's when things can backfire. If we just state our ultimate goal, things will be handled without us having to be a backseat driver.

I believe the end result would even work in a non sentient setting as you stated you work with.  Then again, you also gave a general description so I'm having to assume along general lines.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 10:02:34 pm by Smokebender »
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

spoOk

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2012, 12:56:35 am »
Quote from: Smokebender;43571



I think things get too obfuscated when we try and put to much detail into our plan. Things change by the moment so that's when things can backfire. If we just state our ultimate goal, things will be handled without us having to be a backseat driver.

I believe the end result would even work in a non sentient setting as you stated you work with.  Then again, you also gave a general description so I'm having to assume along general lines.

 
agreed,but then putting the wording correctly to give the result some rom of limits is always good too.
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2012, 02:15:35 am »
Quote from: spoOk;43585
agreed,but then putting the wording correctly to give the result some rom of limits is always good too.

Agreed. I'd rather become an auto mechanic in a timely manner rather than waiting until I'm six months from retirement age as an example of a limit.

I in fact placed a time limit on a spell tonight of 3 days. It's a fairly simple spell so 3 days is plenty enough time. I then will know if I'm on the right track so to speak for what I'm trying to learn.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 02:17:41 am by Smokebender »
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

monsnoleedra

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 02:32:18 am »
Quote from: fallenangel;42764
I am VERY new to spell casting...and in my life, if it CAN go wrong...it WILL. I am very hesitant to try anything that has more than three lines of instructions, including the materials list.

That said, how do you go about choosing the right spell?  Especially if there are quite a number of them that will achieve the same purpose?

Thanks so much for your help.


Perhaps i'm out in left field here but for me the most important aspect of choosing the correct spell is first knowing just what I want to do and what I expect the spell to do.  That means to actually have sat down and though through all the parameters of the spell, the pro's, the con's, time lines for completion and recognizable signs of working and the potential costs.

Then I usually sit down and write my own.  I don't tend to use another person's creation for words have power.  The meaning of a word and its power differs from person to person, what the word inspires or instills in them.  Even the way one thinks and formats things varies from person to person so the greatest spell recorded may be a failure in the hands of another person who does not stress the correct word or place or sylabil, etc.

Even the source one calls upon may break a spell when all the words used support something else.

I suppose in some ways creating a spell is like writing poetry.  While there are rules for it and certain beats and formats it doesn't mean it will roll off the tongue of the person speaking it unless they are the person who wrote it.  Any one else speaking it is simply aping the original creator and hoping they do it the same.

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2012, 11:49:40 am »
Quote from: Smokebender;43571

I believe we all believe that our Gods, Deities, inner selves, whatever we believe in are omnipotent, thus we shouldn't have to treat them as if they may not know how to do things properly.


This is not actually a common belief.  You will find that most pagans do not believe in omnipotence or omniscience at all.  Not in our gods, deities, guardians, inner selves, higher selves, etc.  Error and weakness are always part of the equation; the magic, the personal power, is in overcoming the error and weakness.  Sometimes you can just insist on the specified result and leave the method, and the responsibility for the method, to the great unknown.  Other times, that is really not a good idea.


Quote from: Smokebender;43571

I believe the end result would even work in a non sentient setting as you stated you work with.  Then again, you also gave a general description so I'm having to assume along general lines.


I don't think I was very clear here.  The spell is non-sentient because it's a concept, brought into being by sentient will.  Ideas are not sentient in themselves, therefore spells are not sentient, therefore spells cannot pick their own bits.  I, the sentient being in charge of any specific spell, pick its bits.

Most things, organic and non-organic, are sentient in my world view - I'm an animist.  Ideas, however, only have the sentience of their originators and users.  Except for those few ideas that develop 'a life of their own', anyway.  Those ones, the symbols, memes, and cultural icons, tend to make good spell components all on their own.

I've never worked or lived in a non-sentient setting.  I have worked with non-sentient things. (again, concepts, ideas, maths - things that don't change themselves without sentient help or device.
 
Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 11:50:57 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;43588
Perhaps i'm out in left field here but for me the most important aspect of choosing the correct spell is first knowing just what I want to do and what I expect the spell to do.  That means to actually have sat down and though through all the parameters of the spell, the pro's, the con's, time lines for completion and recognizable signs of working and the potential costs.

Then I usually sit down and write my own.  I don't tend to use another person's creation for words have power.  The meaning of a word and its power differs from person to person, what the word inspires or instills in them.  Even the way one thinks and formats things varies from person to person so the greatest spell recorded may be a failure in the hands of another person who does not stress the correct word or place or sylabil, etc.

Even the source one calls upon may break a spell when all the words used support something else.

I suppose in some ways creating a spell is like writing poetry.  While there are rules for it and certain beats and formats it doesn't mean it will roll off the tongue of the person speaking it unless they are the person who wrote it.  Any one else speaking it is simply aping the original creator and hoping they do it the same.

 
Agreed again. Imho, nothing in this forum should be taken as an exact set of rules because I don't think anyone is offering anything up as, "this is exactly how it should be done." No one can tell you how to use your magic because it probably won't work. It's more advisable to look at what is in this forum as examples of ways others accomplish  their means of accomplishing a goal.

 I use a simple one line spell whenever possible at this time because what I'm asking for are things I consider harmless yet beneficial, ie learning to fry chicken until it's actually done. [Honest to god I think I could place a leg quarter in a thermo nuclear reactor for three days and it would still come out half raw.] The spell I would use for this would be "the next time I fry chicken it will be fully cooked."

 I don't do revenge spells so I'm not worried about something backfiring and harming me or others. I will however do a spell along the lines of " I want to see XX in jail soon because they are cooking and selling meth."

I don't do spells at a whim or the spur of the moment. I take the time to figure out a way that feels like I can acquire my goal and not hit the wrong target or end up with an unexpected backfire yet the actual spell is of few words so I can either use the letters as a sigil or a chant.

At this point in time I've been rolling around in my head for about a week a spell that will allow me to  cure migraines for my wife with the laying on of hands.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 12:11:23 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43637
This is not actually a common belief.  You will find that most pagans do not believe in omnipotence or omniscience at all.  Not in our gods, deities, guardians, inner selves, higher selves, etc.  Error and weakness are always part of the equation; the magic, the personal power, is in overcoming the error and weakness.  Sometimes you can just insist on the specified result and leave the method, and the responsibility for the method, to the great unknown.  Other times, that is really not a good idea.


I haven't read anything of Paganism as of yet. This however would have confused the crap out of me because I can't fathom praying, using, however you wish to phrase it, a God that one does not fully trust. In my mind a God is called a God for a reason. Perhaps it's a difference in culture as a great deal of my upbringing and beliefs spring from being of Cherokee descent.


Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43637

I don't think I was very clear here.  The spell is non-sentient because it's a concept, brought into being by sentient will.  Ideas are not sentient in themselves, therefore spells are not sentient, therefore spells cannot pick their own bits.  I, the sentient being in charge of any specific spell, pick its bits.

Most things, organic and non-organic, are sentient in my world view - I'm an animist.  Ideas, however, only have the sentience of their originators and users.  Except for those few ideas that develop 'a life of their own', anyway.  Those ones, the symbols, memes, and cultural icons, tend to make good spell components all on their own.

I've never worked or lived in a non-sentient setting.  I have worked with non-sentient things. (again, concepts, ideas, maths - things that don't change themselves without sentient help or device.
 
Absent



Ahhhhh! Gotcha! I know precisely what you're talking about.  What you're referring to is along the lines of creating a computer program. It won't do diddly unless you give it instructions to do something and how to do it. I have no choice but to agree with you in that respect.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 10:26:52 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43641
I haven't read anything of Paganism as of yet. This however would have confused the crap out of me because I can't fathom praying, using, however you wish to phrase it, a God that one does not fully trust. In my mind a God is called a God for a reason. Perhaps it's a difference in culture as a great deal of my upbringing and beliefs spring from being of Cherokee descent.


You can't fully trust something that is not perfect and omnipotent?  That's good, because you can't fully trust a god, either, but I imagine it's a little hard on your friends and family.

And if it helps, my mother's family is Ojibwe.  Believe me, the gods are not perfect.  Nor are they particularly trustworthy.  I'm amazed that Cherokee see it so differently.

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

Darkhawk

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 10:42:56 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43571

I believe we all believe that our Gods, Deities, inner selves, whatever we believe in are omnipotent, thus we shouldn't have to treat them as if they may not know how to do things properly.

 
I believe that a belief in anything with omnipotence is extremely problematic and also hard to back up by observing reality.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Smokebender

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Re: Questions on choosing the right spell
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 11:31:51 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;43710
You can't fully trust something that is not perfect and omnipotent?  That's good, because you can't fully trust a god, either, but I imagine it's a little hard on your friends and family.

And if it helps, my mother's family is Ojibwe.  Believe me, the gods are not perfect.  Nor are they particularly trustworthy.  I'm amazed that Cherokee see it so differently.

Absent

 
With us it depends on the God. Mother Sun and Daughter Moon could be trusted. The little people could be tricksters but caution had to be exercised so we weren't stealing from them in the forest. O-in-deh-yah-o is our creator who, not unlike the Christian God has a reason for everything. Sure there were Gods that couldn't be trusted but were looked at as more like people. Snake were people for instance. We don't needlessly kill snake because snake will come back for revenge. Coyote, another trickster is more people than a God. Awl finger was an evil witch that killed indiscriminately. Turkey is who we mimicked when we went to war and we used their gobble as the war cry.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

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