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Author Topic: Peter Carroll's Liber Null  (Read 6305 times)

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 04:09:12 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43029
There seems to be a general consensus there are two area's that can be aimed at regarding magic. Lower or black magic pertains to things that can be considered a part of the ego such as wealth, power etc. Higher or white magic pertains to the inner self and used for knowledge or a higher form of consciousness.

Some will use both or pursue one or the other. My goals pertain to both. I feel everything has to have a balance or make a circle if you will. One cannot have one without the other, ie, there is no up without a down.

I am aiming for knowledge as the ultimate goal. I'm a sponge when it comes to learning things. I also want to be a healer of sorts. To be able to do this requires an income. At the moment I live on disability with zero chance of being gainfully employed in the workforce.  Being 57 doesn't help that situation whatsoever. The majority of my time demands I do creative financing and looking at ways to keep the electricity on. There is still zero reason why I cannot make a reasonable income by being self employed. Practicing both higher and lower magic allows me to reach my goals by helping me find the income to become self employed and the knowledge to stay self employed.


Perhaps I am viewing this all wrong, but wouldn't practising "low" magick negate your ability to attain "high" magick (as you perceive) on the conscious level?  Like I said, maybe I'm looking at this in an alternative mod.

spoOk

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 10:03:17 pm »
Quote from: stitchinwith;43048
Perhaps I am viewing this all wrong, but wouldn't practising "low" magick negate your ability to attain "high" magick (as you perceive) on the conscious level?  Like I said, maybe I'm looking at this in an alternative mod.

 
I've honestly never heard of it as high being white and low being black....because there are blackish and whitish in both forms.....ie.
hoodoo is to satanism/demonology as kitchen folk magic is to kabala wiccany type ritual
to make it super simplified.
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

Smokebender

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2012, 01:37:53 am »
Quote from: stitchinwith;43048
Perhaps I am viewing this all wrong, but wouldn't practising "low" magick negate your ability to attain "high" magick (as you perceive) on the conscious level?  Like I said, maybe I'm looking at this in an alternative mod.

 

To the contrary. One can use lower magic to keep or at least help keep the bills paid allowing time to pursue the goals the higher magic demands.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

Smokebender

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 02:06:37 am »
Quote from: spoOk;43106
I've honestly never heard of it as high being white and low being black....because there are blackish and whitish in both forms.....ie.
hoodoo is to satanism/demonology as kitchen folk magic is to kabala wiccany type ritual
to make it super simplified.


I've read enough authors now that I'm not going to say who put it in print as I described it. But really, it makes sense. At least to me.

Lower magic,,, again, lower magic is used to attain wealth, power, sex, cursing etc. Money has to come from somewhere and if I direct that it fall into my lap, the odds are it's coming out of someone elses pocket or I've found out a relative I dearly loved has named me as their beneficiary and had an untimely death. As spook said, be careful what you ask for.  Sadly, there are those that could care less, thus lower magic can be used for black purposes. But just because it's lower magic, that doesn't mean one has to use it for black purposes. Yes, I need money, Pfft. Who doesn't? But it's all in how it's asked for. Instead of asking that it fall into my lap, I say, "I want to make my living as a....." I'm now directed to the steps necessary to achieve my goal.

If we want to heal, gain knowledge, have a higher plain of consciousness, we're back to higher magic. Higher magic has one focusing on things totally unrelated to the ego, thus, it's difficult to use it for black purposes.

In the end it's just words.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 02:11:46 am by Smokebender »
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

spoOk

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 02:31:17 am »
Quote from: Smokebender;43119
I've read enough authors now that I'm not going to say who put it in print as I described it. But really, it makes sense. At least to me.

Lower magic,,, again, lower magic is used to attain wealth, power, sex, cursing etc. Money has to come from somewhere and if I direct that it fall into my lap, the odds are it's coming out of someone elses pocket or I've found out a relative I dearly loved has named me as their beneficiary and had an untimely death. As spook said, be careful what you ask for.  Sadly, there are those that could care less, thus lower magic can be used for black purposes. But just because it's lower magic, that doesn't mean one has to use it for black purposes. Yes, I need money, Pfft. Who doesn't? But it's all in how it's asked for. Instead of asking that it fall into my lap, I say, "I want to make my living as a....." I'm now directed to the steps necessary to achieve my goal.

If we want to heal, gain knowledge, have a higher plain of consciousness, we're back to higher magic. Higher magic has one focusing on things totally unrelated to the ego, thus, it's difficult to use it for black purposes.

In the end it's just words.

 
well yes,because using your particular take,where would you put folk magic which ends up being mostly herb related remedies for healing ? by your take that would be high magic....but most definitions I've read was low magic was more the peasant magic and high magic was more the court Mage at the beck and call of the royals or the rituals done by the well to do with time to spend on such things or say the pursuit of alchemy.
I've honestly never heard of it divided in quite the manner your suggesting.
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

Smokebender

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2012, 12:28:17 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;43122
well yes,because using your particular take,where would you put folk magic which ends up being mostly herb related remedies for healing ? by your take that would be high magic....but most definitions I've read was low magic was more the peasant magic and high magic was more the court Mage at the beck and call of the royals or the rituals done by the well to do with time to spend on such things or say the pursuit of alchemy.
I've honestly never heard of it divided in quite the manner your suggesting.

 

Healing regardless of whether or not herbs are used would lend to higher magic. One is trying to do something that isn't related to ones ego,,, hopefully.

I have several cd's full of books related to magic and will have to hunt for the exact book and passage that refers to what I read but it's probably "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn".  

Here's a link I scrounged that speaks of Higher Magic and is along the lines of what I'm trying to relay.

http://www.mikecrowson.co.uk/Path%20of%20Magic.html
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 05:08:08 pm »
Quote from: spoOk;43106
I've honestly never heard of it as high being white and low being black....because there are blackish and whitish in both forms.....ie.
hoodoo is to satanism/demonology as kitchen folk magic is to kabala wiccany type ritual
to make it super simplified.

 
I appreciate the super simplified.

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 06:13:40 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43157
Healing regardless of whether or not herbs are used would lend to higher magic. One is trying to do something that isn't related to ones ego,,, hopefully.  

Here's a link I scrounged that speaks of Higher Magic and is along the lines of what I'm trying to relay.

http://www.mikecrowson.co.uk/Path%20of%20Magic.html
 

I read the link, and it left me thinking....I've read something very similar to that somewhere else.

Okay, so this is the Higher Magic you wish to attain.  I think I have a better insight into what it is you seek.  Can't say it appeals to me, but each to their own.

As you know I am solitary, and not into any forms of rituals or worship, so I presume you would consider my path to be that of low magic.  What can I say ~ works for me.

Smokebender

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 07:03:25 pm »
Quote from: stitchinwith;43225
I read the link, and it left me thinking....I've read something very similar to that somewhere else.

Okay, so this is the Higher Magic you wish to attain.  I think I have a better insight into what it is you seek.  Can't say it appeals to me, but each to their own.

As you know I am solitary, and not into any forms of rituals or worship, so I presume you would consider my path to be that of low magic.  What can I say ~ works for me.

 
Not necessarily. I'm also a loner so I understand you more than you may think. Higher magic is like lower magic in that one can use it for various things. The difference is, lower magic is primarily used for things that can be related to ego. Even though your intent may be pure to acquire say money, money can relate back to ego,,, even though the money is needed to buy food to survive. In retrospect, we can easily change the word ego to the words "the body". What do we need for the body? Protection, shelter, food, transportation etc.

Higher magic is used to affect the self or mind or even others welfare. Yes, lower magic can be used to help others but I'm aiming higher even and that is the mind. If I want to rid myself of say coveting, I'd have to change the way my mind thinks. If I wanted to be able to read something once and be able to recall it word for word as well as fully understand it, I have to work on my mind. I'm interested in working on my inner self and it involves improving my memory as well as my temper,,, which by the way is bad enough I have to take meds for it. I also want to be able to acquire the knowledge I need to be self employed in a certain field and do so successfully. That takes knowledge which affects the mind.

As for dividing magic up, it's actually moot. Some authors refer to magic as energy, others refer to it as psychic abilities. Some authors lump all area's of magic into one with no distinctions. It's all moot. All we really need to know is what we're aiming for and the results of our efforts.
For human folly is without limit though society does much to
disguise its darker side. Cynicism, sadness or laughter is the
magician\'s privilege. -  Peter Carrol / Liber Null

fallenangel

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 08:20:32 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;41036


As an aside. I don't meditate in the traditional sense of sitting twisted up like a pretzel and moaning some phrase. I do nothing more than sit and stare outside the bay window next to my pc and just think, letting my mind drift. The answer always comes to me.

 
Wow...thought I was the only one who didn't meditate in the traditional sense (who wants to be uncomfortable anyways?). I prefer the swing in the backyard. Once I can hear the creek, the answer isn't too far behind.

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2012, 08:37:09 pm »
Quote from: Smokebender;43240
Not necessarily. I'm also a loner so I understand you more than you may think. Higher magic is like lower magic in that one can use it for various things. The difference is, lower magic is primarily used for things that can be related to ego. Even though your intent may be pure to acquire say money, money can relate back to ego,,, even though the money is needed to buy food to survive. In retrospect, we can easily change the word ego to the words "the body". What do we need for the body? Protection, shelter, food, transportation etc.

Higher magic is used to affect the self or mind or even others welfare. Yes, lower magic can be used to help others but I'm aiming higher even and that is the mind. If I want to rid myself of say coveting, I'd have to change the way my mind thinks. If I wanted to be able to read something once and be able to recall it word for word as well as fully understand it, I have to work on my mind. I'm interested in working on my inner self and it involves improving my memory as well as my temper,,, which by the way is bad enough I have to take meds for it. I also want to be able to acquire the knowledge I need to be self employed in a certain field and do so successfully. That takes knowledge which affects the mind.

As for dividing magic up, it's actually moot. Some authors refer to magic as energy, others refer to it as psychic abilities. Some authors lump all area's of magic into one with no distinctions. It's all moot. All we really need to know is what we're aiming for and the results of our efforts.

 
I've not come into magic/witchcraft for wealth, but to answer questions that have niggled me since childhood ~ what am I? why can I see "things"?  why am I the only person who can hear "that"?  why can I feel your pain? I'm beginning to learn what I am, and am more content. With knowledge, comes understanding.  Then more questions. lol

For me, wealth = health.  I have never been a greedy person for money.  As long as I have enough to feed, clothe and shelter my family, I'm happy.  Any extra is a bonus.  
 
I appreciate you want to extend your knowledge-base to an exalted level in order to facilitate control and focus of your mind, thereby fulfilling your desire to improve your inner self, and attain the outcome of becoming self-employed and self-sustaining.  As someone who is self-employed, be sure it's truly what you want, as this status is fraught with many pitfalls, such as legislation, codes of practice, business taxes, overheads, employee expenses, suppliers, advertising, insurance etc.  However, if your aim is for a one-man service/trade, then some, but not all, of the above listed can be ignored.  

I believe that whatever you do in life, you have to have fun doing it, or what's the point in doing it at all.  For me, this journey into witchcraft and magick is most enjoyable.  I am learning something new every day, meeting new people, experiencing new ideas and loving every minute of it.

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2012, 08:48:20 pm »
Quote from: fallenangel;43247
Wow...thought I was the only one who didn't meditate in the traditional sense (who wants to be uncomfortable anyways?). I prefer the swing in the backyard. Once I can hear the creek, the answer isn't too far behind.

 
Welcome to the club of the non-trad meditators. Cloud watching is my preferred method, and the shapes and how I perceive them invariably resolve any issues I may have had.

fallenangel

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2012, 09:56:30 pm »
Quote from: stitchinwith;43250
I've not come into magic/witchcraft for wealth, but to answer questions that have niggled me since childhood ~ what am I? why can I see "things"?  why am I the only person who can hear "that"?  why can I feel your pain? I'm beginning to learn what I am, and am more content. With knowledge, comes understanding.  Then more questions. lol


for me, it is pretty much the same reasons.  Especially, Why can I feel your pain...your sorrow, the helpless and despair. Why can I feel you? Which I always end up asking (and getting some pretty strange looks and comments when I do so aloud...or via text... without realizing it) "How can I help you, so I don't feel this way".

Quote from: stitchinwith;43250
For me, wealth = health.  I have never been a greedy person for money.  As long as I have enough to feed, clothe and shelter my family, I'm happy.  Any extra is a bonus.


Again, I fell pretty much the same way.  I am at the point in which I would prefer a bartering system and ONLY for what my family and I need and NOT what we THINK we can't live without...a concept that is kinda frightening since I sit here surrounded by every gizmo and gadget that I THINK I cannot live without. (I dare ANYONE to pry my iPhone out of my hand).

Quote from: stitchinwith;43250
I believe that whatever you do in life, you have to have fun doing it, or what's the point in doing it at all.  For me, this journey into witchcraft and magick is most enjoyable.  I am learning something new every day, meeting new people, experiencing new ideas and loving every minute of it.


I have pretty much the same mindset.  For me, this journey has been more about self-discovery and healing. If I am not whole (or on a path to become whole) how am I going to be able to help those who truly need me?


Oh, and on the cloud meditation....my son likes to do that too, even though I don't think he realizes just WHAT it is that he is doing. :)

spoOk

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2012, 10:57:16 pm »
Quote from: stitchinwith;43253
Welcome to the club of the non-trad meditators. Cloud watching is my preferred method, and the shapes and how I perceive them invariably resolve any issues I may have had.

 
I've successfully meditated by staring into incense smoke ribbons.
as for the hi vs low magick thing.....I'm seriously beginning to think we are using different definitions,both correct in and of themselves but that use the same terminology.
yours seem to be more along the black vs white magic values where mine is more the actual spell work stylings.
Ize bel zafen.
Ize bel daleen.

stitchinwith

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Re: Peter Carroll's Liber Null
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2012, 05:23:43 am »
Quote from: spoOk;43269
I've successfully meditated by staring into incense smoke ribbons.
as for the hi vs low magick thing.....I'm seriously beginning to think we are using different definitions,both correct in and of themselves but that use the same terminology.
yours seem to be more along the black vs white magic values where mine is more the actual spell work stylings.

 
Re-reading my post, I can see how you've come to this conclusion.  I've recently come through chemo and rad treatment, and my energy levels in both the physical and mental level are low to non-existent.  

I don't know much about black or white magick, in all honesty.  In life I tend to live in the "grey", as there are always at least two sides to any situation, so I would imagine in all probability my path in magick will reflect my everyday life.

Oh, never meditated by fixing on smoke ribbons, but I've zoned out staring into the flames of the coal fire.

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