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Author Topic: Non wiccan witchcraft?  (Read 22513 times)

Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2013, 06:16:29 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;101310
I'll try to put this in small words, since you keep (perhaps deliberately) missing the point. These studies were done mainly by white people. They didn't understand our words. They used their own. They clumped everybody who did "that stuff" together and gave them one name. These practices are not the same time. There is no word for people who do "all that stuff over there." People specialize. Someone who works with the spirits is not a healer is not a teacher is not a leader of ceremony. These are all different jobs. "Shaman/medicine man/person who does all that shit" is NOT A WORD in the Cherokee language, because that isn't one job.

 
And that is fine - and I acknowledged that the "catch-all" name wasn't "catch-all". I heard what you said about tribal elders teaching lore and the healers being separate and distinct.

In that same post of mine you quoted, I pointed that distinction to Heart Shadow when she said "spirit worker", although I see you only felt the need to jump on me about it.

But then I also asked if "medicine-man" wasn't a concept per se, why does the Cherokee nation tribal website use that term and state they interacted with spiritual beings? Am I reading more into that interaction than there was? Was it one way? limited to education/training? You say the elders taught spiritual lore? How? Just through storytelling? by example?

You are in a position to teach, and this thread is supposed to have been learning about the practices associated with non wiccan crafts. I am more interested in how this related to witchcraft. I mean - take this passage from the Cherokee nation website:

Quote
Witchcraft among the Cherokee does not resemble that of non-Indian cultures. To understand and respect the beliefs of traditional Cherokee about using medicine, conjuring, and witchcraft you must first consider early Indian societies and consider how this has remained an integral part of Cherokee culture even up to the present day. There are ordinary witches and then there are killer witches. Ordinary witches are actually considered the more dangerous since a person can never be sure he is dealing with one and they are more difficult to counteract. They may even deceive a medicine person and cause them to prescribe the wrong cure if not they aren't careful. One killer witch still spoken of often by traditionalists today is the Raven Mocker.


There are a lot of question left from that one paragraph, please tell us more.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2013, 07:22:09 pm »
Nyktipolos,

Thank you for your detailed responses, many of them were to posts made prior to your later posts which I responded too, so I hope that by going through the progression of the discussion you can see that I'm really not trying to enforce colonialistic names or concepts, I am trying to get past them and what I was looking for was a generic non-offensive name be it shaman, medicine person, spirit walker/worker, whatever with which to put a pin in the position of spiritual/religious/faith leader/teacher/guide and discuss the basic of the faiths.

However I also admit that I got a bit hung up on the grammar too. And when I saw the sweeping statements that one term is going to be offensive to Native Americans as a group - it tickled that pet peeve of mine that said "you are doing the same generalizing thing, just in reverse." - and I hoped others could see that too.

I did want to hit one point about what you said though.

Quote from: Nyktipolos;101321
First of all, that statistic means nothing. You can claim *ancestry* all you want, but it means nothing when it comes to actually connecting to a culture. You should also know now that bringing blood quantum into a Native discussion is like having an open flame near a powder keg, because blood quantum was a foreign concept used by Canadian and American governments (and STILL DO) to decide who is More Native Than Thou, which was another way of destroying their entire culture.

PS: Mohicans are not Mohawks: those are two separate Algonquin tribes. Also, the Iroquois is/are a confederacy of tribes, not *a* tribe.

The statistic was meant as nothing more than a curiosity, and no where near meant as a more than thou challenge. I am big into genealogy and found the connection. So I did a little digging, but unfortunately there wasn't much to go on. In the records, the tribeswoman is given a Christian name with a maiden name of Mohawk Woman, her father is simply listed as Mohawk Chief. I doubt her father really was the chief, but he was the one responsible for her and probably had to give permission for her to marry, especially to an outsider. Other than that little specific data on her was found.

What I did find - and was trying to point out was that even though the tribe is still listed as Mohawk Nation, even on their website, not everyone in the tribe was happy about that, or being listed as part of the Iroquois Confederacy, because both Mohawk and Iroqouis are European names, however they are the generally accepted names, even by most of the tribe, when speaking English or dealing with outsiders. So is my use of the word Mohawk offensive or not, just because a small minority of the tribe has an issue with the name's origin, but the majority of the tribe accepts it?

And sorry about the Mohawk/Mohican cross-over, spell check kept correcting me when I tried to use variations of Mohawkian, and I just went with the first reference I could find.

Quote
I'm Métis, and I have no obligation to you, nor does any Native person in this discussion or not, to tell you what the words are in our languages to you. (Which, so I can make this as clear as possible, does not mean we won't.)

That's great - and all I was asking was that if shaman or medicine man was too offensive, then provide the right word in Michif or another non-offensive word and I'll do my best to remember. Don't leave me hanging. However you said that medicine man/person worked for you, so that is what I would normally try to go with.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 07:24:00 pm by Dark Waters »
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stephyjh

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Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2013, 08:03:06 pm »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101342
And that is fine - and I acknowledged that the "catch-all" name wasn't "catch-all". I heard what you said about tribal elders teaching lore and the healers being separate and distinct.

In that same post of mine you quoted, I pointed that distinction to Heart Shadow when she said "spirit worker", although I see you only felt the need to jump on me about it.

But then I also asked if "medicine-man" wasn't a concept per se, why does the Cherokee nation tribal website use that term and state they interacted with spiritual beings? Am I reading more into that interaction than there was? Was it one way? limited to education/training? You say the elders taught spiritual lore? How? Just through storytelling? by example?

You are in a position to teach, and this thread is supposed to have been learning about the practices associated with non wiccan crafts. I am more interested in how this related to witchcraft. I mean - take this passage from the Cherokee nation website:



There are a lot of question left from that one paragraph, please tell us more.

I guess you still don't understand "We get stuck using your words because your culture refuses to allow us to use ours."
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Fireof9

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2013, 08:10:29 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;101268
I just want to clarify something with you: are you asking if there is are generic terms that are not inherently linked to a language (like technician of the sacred, liminalist), or general terms that could reasonibly be applied in Native cultures? For the latter, I have seem some terminology used that is more common in Canada, f'ex, but not in the States? "Medicine man/woman" is the most common I've heard, but I live in the plains area so I may be biased.

To be honest though... unless I find out some other way (like, by being told ahead of time or just asking "Hi, is there a proper term I should refer to you as because I want to be respectful?"), I just refer to them as "elder"? It just seem to be the safest course for me, and usually that's because the person IS an elder in the community. ... Which also isn't to say that there are not younger adults in these traditions, because there are! Which kind of brings me back around to asking them how they prefer to be referred to. :)

Does that help at all?

 
That does actually. The time I got told shaman (with a wink ) I asked. The other two times it just came up in conversation. I was kind asking if you knew of a kind of generic term that could be used without being considered offensive. Elder is a great one, and one I should have known. I have been away from anywhere where there is native culture for too long now.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
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stephyjh

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2013, 09:21:08 pm »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101342


You are in a position to teach, and this thread is supposed to have been learning about the practices associated with non wiccan crafts..


Are you SERIOUS right now? Just because I'm in a position where I've actually done the legwork to learn something about where my family came from doesn't mean I'm obligated to share that knowledge with you, despite your assumption that you're entitled to all knowledge. I have repeatedly attempted to share with you, but at this point, with the way you've repeatedly argued me down and tried to silence me, it is NOT MY JOB. I'm too frustrated to deal with it. I've got my Casual Racism Bingo, and I'm out.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2013, 09:47:57 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;101355
I guess you still don't understand "We get stuck using your words because your culture refuses to allow us to use ours."


Then tell us your words or some alternative. This isn't about "my culture refusing you" - that isn't happening here, I am asking for your words (although it would be presumptuous of me to claim I represent my culture, whatever you think that is since you don't know me personally). You are the one refusing to use them, for either personal or cultural reasons. Don't blame me for your choice.
 
Quote from: stephyjh;101362
Are you SERIOUS right now? Just because I'm in a position where I've actually done the legwork to learn something about where my family came from doesn't mean I'm obligated to share that knowledge with you, despite your assumption that you're entitled to all knowledge. I have repeatedly attempted to share with you, but at this point, with the way you've repeatedly argued me down and tried to silence me, it is NOT MY JOB. I'm too frustrated to deal with it. I've got my Casual Racism Bingo, and I'm out.

 
No you aren't obligated to teach me or anyone. You are just the one saying everything I say is wrong, even when linked from the Tribal website. You are also the one not providing further information, so I am left with what I view as official sources, the official tribal website, that actually use the term. If you disagree with the tribal leaders, take it up with them, not me.

I have not tried to silence you in any way, in fact I have repeatedly asked you to speak up, provide info, clarify confusion and more. I don't want you to shut up, I want you to talk more about the subject.

Racism Bingo, huh? I would view calling me a racist as a personal attack - but the staff will likely let it slide. Either way I am sorry to see you go, I wish we could have talked more about the topic and less about personal opinions of me.
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stephyjh

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2013, 10:08:06 pm »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101364
Then tell us your words or some alternative.


Already covered this at length, more than once. Reading comprehension is a thing.
 

 
Quote

No you aren't obligated to teach me or anyone. You are just the one saying everything I say is wrong, even when linked from the Tribal website. You are also the one not providing further information, so I am left with what I view as official sources, the official tribal website, that actually use the term. If you disagree with the tribal leaders, take it up with them, not me.


The concept of using another culture's words because the occupying culture has rejected our own has been repeatedly covered upthread. Again, comprehension. The phrase does NOT EXIST in the Tsalagi language. There isn't a blanket phrase for the category within Cherokee culture, because within the culture, the jobs aren't clumped together. I gave you a term for healers, which is what 'medicine man' is often used to mean. It's the closest thing that exists. You're trying to describe a cultural concept in terms of a culture that doesn't have it. Colonial attitudes have forced the use of words the privileged group understands. That's how colonialism works.

Quote
I have not tried to silence you in any way, in fact I have repeatedly asked you to speak up, provide info, clarify confusion and more. I don't want you to shut up, I want you to talk more about the subject.


So that you can argue me down. Which you keep doing.

Quote
Racism Bingo, huh? I would view calling me a racist as a personal attack - but the staff will likely let it slide. Either way I am sorry to see you go, I wish we could have talked more about the topic and less about personal opinions of me.


Reading comprehension, again. I said that the behavior is racist. If the behavior is representative of how you define yourself, that's on you. Condemning the behavior, because it's offensive as shit and I don't feel like you have the right to behave that way towards us, is not a personal attack.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Catherine

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2013, 10:30:53 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;101321

First of all, that statistic means nothing. You can claim *ancestry* all you want, but it means nothing when it comes to actually connecting to a culture.


This.
 
You know, this is a thing that really bothers me, but it happens all the time and I cringe every time it does. The whole "I'm whatever % insert tribe here____" thing.

My great, great grandmother was Cherokee. So what? I, however, am not. I wasn't raised in that culture and I know virtually nothing about it. Well, nothing that isn't public, general history kind of stuff. The stories that I got from my grandfather (on my mom's side) are... horrible, to say the least. I can't even imagine what GGGrandma and her immediate family went through, and I certainly wouldn't try to appropriate it and use it for my own gain.

The thing is, even if I am whatever % Cherokee, I'm not entitled to claim, or even ask for... anything at all. I don't get why some people think that parading the percentages around should give them automatic access to a history and traditions that aren't their own.

I don't think I'm articulating this correctly. So, I'll just say it bugs the hell out of me and leave it at that.

Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2013, 11:22:37 pm »
Quote from: Catherine;101369
This.
 
You know, this is a thing that really bothers me, but it happens all the time and I cringe every time it does. The whole "I'm whatever % insert tribe here____" thing.

My great, great grandmother was Cherokee. So what? I, however, am not. I wasn't raised in that culture and I know virtually nothing about it. Well, nothing that isn't public, general history kind of stuff. The stories that I got from my grandfather (on my mom's side) are... horrible, to say the least. I can't even imagine what GGGrandma and her immediate family went through, and I certainly wouldn't try to appropriate it and use it for my own gain.

The thing is, even if I am whatever % Cherokee, I'm not entitled to claim, or even ask for... anything at all. I don't get why some people think that parading the percentages around should give them automatic access to a history and traditions that aren't their own.

I don't think I'm articulating this correctly. So, I'll just say it bugs the hell out of me and leave it at that.


I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, I was using the fact I found a Mohawk ancestor in my family tree as a starting point to find out some facts about the tribe, not to say that because some some distant g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-great grandfather was Mohawk that I was in any way part of the tribe or claiming expert knowledge of their deep hidden practices. The rest of my references came from either the tribal websites or sites of individual members.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2013, 11:51:13 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;101367
Already covered this at length, more than once. Reading comprehension is a thing.


You gave the words for healer/healers only once. Then said medicine men didn't exist in the culture and that healing and spirituality was separate. Reading comprehension passed.

Additional reading comprehension, checking other references and surprise I find the term is used and there does seem to be a spiritual component. I see a conflict between sources, and asked for clarification.


 

Quote
The concept of using another culture's words because the occupying culture has rejected our own has been repeatedly covered upthread. Again, comprehension. The phrase does NOT EXIST in the Tsalagi language. There isn't a blanket phrase for the category within Cherokee culture, because within the culture, the jobs aren't clumped together. I gave you a term for healers, which is what 'medicine man' is often used to mean. It's the closest thing that exists. You're trying to describe a cultural concept in terms of a culture that doesn't have it. Colonial attitudes have forced the use of words the privileged group understands. That's how colonialism works.


I agree - and I pointed out the disparity between medicine and spirituality that you used when I responded to Heart Shadow, again comprehension passed.

However as said, in the description provided on the Tribal link, there did seem to be a spiritual component in dealing with The Little People that did appear to make the term medicine man/person applicable as it is generally used by outsiders. Again I saw source conflict and asked for clarification.


Quote
So that you can argue me down. Which you keep doing.


In all cases I was requesting more information to understand better or to resolve source conflict. That is not arguing you down, if fact I am holding you as an equal source as the official tribal website and not some oddball. I am sincerely trying to understand why you are saying one thing whereas my understanding of the other source says something different.

If you can not provide those answers, that's fine too. You may have been taught differently than what they are putting a public face on, there may be a schism in there. Your experience is different.


Quote
Reading comprehension, again. I said that the behavior is racist. If the behavior is representative of how you define yourself, that's on you. Condemning the behavior, because it's offensive as shit and I don't feel like you have the right to behave that way towards us, is not a personal attack.

 
Ah, but this whole argument seems to be about perception of terms, and that any negative perception is the fault of the speaker regardless of intent, not the listener. You said my comments gave you your "Casual Racism Bingo". I perceive that statement to imply I am a racist. You were the speaker ... your own logic.
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Morag

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2013, 12:18:39 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101300
Otherwise why hold the discussion at all. Just ignore Native American beliefs since anything we say might offend someone because we don't have the proper terminology?

 
That's one idea.

This link may better explain.
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Morag

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2013, 12:36:28 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101377
Ah, but this whole argument seems to be about perception of terms, and that any negative perception is the fault of the speaker regardless of intent, not the listener. You said my comments gave you your "Casual Racism Bingo". I perceive that statement to imply I am a racist. You were the speaker ... your own logic.

 
Newsflash: we're all a little bit racist.

It comes from being raised in a racist society. You don't have to be white to be racist. My part-Cherokee father is one of the most racist people I've ever met. You know why? Internalized racism is a thing. Just as internalized sexism is. A woman laughing at a sexist joke doesn't make the joke non-sexist; it means she has internalized misogyny. (Let me just say I speak from experience here, before you ask me for sources.) And internalized transphobia and homophobia and fatphobia and colonialism and all those other things that make life in the kyriarchy such a fun romp through a fragging minefield for many of us.

Being a member of a marginalized group doesn't give you a pass for exhibiting oppressive behaviors.

Exhibiting racism is something we're taught to do from a young age, and unless we actively work to stop doing it, we'll continue to for the rest of our lives. Casual racism is actually pretty common.

So you may perceive the statement to imply you're a racist. It doesn't mean stephy called you a racist. She called out your behaviour.

If you are so wrapped up in your behaviour defining you and you don't like that definition, then maybe you should consider...I don't know. Changing your behaviour?

Just a thought.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2013, 01:27:26 am »
Quote from: Morag;101379
That's one idea.

This link may better explain.

 
Or I could be trying to bring the topic back from a derailment over an innocent misuse of term.

The topic isn't specific names of Native American spiritual leaders - it is non-wiccan witchcraft and I have repeatedly asked about specific practices including referencing where Cherokees talk about Ordinary and Killer Witches in the belief system.

However the actual topic no longer seems to be of concern, instead better to call someone who disagrees with the loudest voices a troll and dismiss them.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2013, 01:39:51 am »
Quote from: Morag;101380
So you may perceive the statement to imply you're a racist. It doesn't mean stephy called you a racist. She called out your behaviour.

If you are so wrapped up in your behaviour defining you and you don't like that definition, then maybe you should consider...I don't know. Changing your behaviour?

Just a thought.


And here is another - perhaps the actual questions asked could be answered instead of throwing indignation around like rice at a wedding.

Please tell me how "your behaviour is racist" differs in significant form from "you are racist." My behavior comes from who I am. If A=B and B=C then A=C. The word game dance is only for those on weak ground.

I perceived that the statement called me racist and in the discussion perception seems to be all that matters. Someone perceives a term is offensive and an attempt to oppress Native Americans through persistance of colonialism behavior - and bang it is so.
All off perception, not intent.

So at the risk of derailing the thread further - please elucidate how the perception of one person is valid, but the perception of another is not. Or we could all get back to the topic.
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2013, 01:44:03 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101385
Or I could be trying to bring the topic back from a derailment over an innocent misuse of term.

 
I think perhaps re-reading the thread may help show exactly where derail was occurring.

It wasn't where folks were very politely pointing out that shaman is problematic, why it's problematic, and the steps you can take to find out the correct terms.

Quote from: Dark Waters;101385
The topic isn't specific names of Native American spiritual leaders - it is non-wiccan witchcraft and I have repeatedly asked about specific practices including referencing where Cherokees talk about Ordinary and Killer Witches in the belief system.


Welcome to TC, where thread drift is common.

Quote from: Dark Waters;101385
However the actual topic no longer seems to be of concern, instead better to call someone who disagrees with the loudest voices a troll and dismiss them.


Please point out exactly where any of us have called you or anyone else a troll.

You won't find it, because it didn't happen.
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Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall