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Author Topic: Non wiccan witchcraft?  (Read 23087 times)

Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2013, 04:13:50 am »
Quote from: Morag;101388
I think perhaps re-reading the thread may help show exactly where derail was occurring.

It wasn't where folks were very politely pointing out that shaman is problematic, why it's problematic, and the steps you can take to find out the correct terms.


Politely is not the term I would use myself - then again I apparently have problems with common terms as well.



Quote
Welcome to TC, where thread drift is common.


Then the worry about derailment is what exactly? Don't complain about derailment and then say it is likely to jump the tracks anyway. My derailment often included nudges to put it back on track.



Quote
Please point out exactly where any of us have called you or anyone else a troll.

You won't find it, because it didn't happen.


So you would deny that that link about derailment describes trollish behavior in detail?

Quote
CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE PRIVILEGE!

Just follow this step-by-step guide to Conversing with Marginalised People™ and in no time at all you will have a fool-proof method of derailing every challenging conversation you may get into, thus reaping the full benefits of every privilege that you have.

The best part is, you don’t even have to be a white, heterosexual, cisgendered, cissexual, upper-class male to enjoy the full benefits of derailing conversation! Nope, you can utilise the lesser-recognised tactic of Horizontal Hostility to make sure that, despite being a member of a Marginalised Group™ yourself, you can exercise a privilege another Marginalised Group™ doesn’t have in order not to heed their experience!

Read on, and learn, and remember… you don’t have to use these in any particular order! In fact, mixing them up can really keep those Marginalised People™ on their toes! After all, they are pretty much used to hearing this stuff, so you don’t want to get too predictable or they’ll get lazy!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 04:15:10 am by Dark Waters »
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2013, 04:27:24 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101387
And here is another - perhaps the actual questions asked could be answered instead of throwing indignation around like rice at a wedding.


They have been. Multiple times. If you don't have the time, energy, or inclination to read through the thread and find the answers you seek, what makes you think any of us want to do it for you?

Quote from: Dark Waters;101387
Please tell me how "your behaviour is racist" differs in significant form from "you are racist." My behavior comes from who I am. If A=B and B=C then A=C. The word game dance is only for those on weak ground.


....wow.

You really don't understand this?


Ok, so, here's something that may help explain. As an example.

I have been abused. Quite a bit, actually, and we know that the abuse thing is a cycle. This means that sometimes, I tend to exhibit the same behaviors that my abusers did.

I'm conscious of this, and I work really really hard to not exhibit those behaviours. But I'm also human, and sometimes that shit just comes out, because I err.

Does that make me an abuser? For forever? Am I an abuser now, because I've repeated the cycle on occasion but have worked hard to not be one? Does my occasional shitty behaviour make me for forever a shitty human being with no recourse to change?

Because that's what you're saying when you say that your behaviour comes from who you are, fundamentally, not what you've been taught or subjected to your whole life. And if that's what you think about people, then I'm just going to call you Javert from now on.  

Quote from: Dark Waters;101387
I perceived that the statement called me racist and in the discussion perception seems to be all that matters. Someone perceives a term is offensive and an attempt to oppress Native Americans through persistance of colonialism behavior - and bang it is so.
All off perception, not intent.

So at the risk of derailing the thread further - please elucidate how the perception of one person is valid, but the perception of another is not. Or we could all get back to the topic.


Ok, fine. You perceive that you were called a racist.

You weren't, but whatever. You think you were, and also apparently that's the worst thing that could ever be said to you. (Oh, if only some of us were so lucky.)

Some of us are perceiving that a) Natives are being called shamans and that's incorrect; b) that Natives are being lumped in together as one monolithic culture,  and that's incorrect; c) that the continued usage of the word shaman is problematic -- that is to say, colonialist, oppressive, and erasive of actual lived traditions and people -- to the extreme when used willy-nilly to refer to Native belief systems; d) that people seem to be refusing to listen when we say "This word is a problem; here's why; please do your research if you want to refer to someone from a particular tribe in that sort of role".

So. Let's break this down, shall we?

A. Natives have been called shamans, in this very thread. It is incorrect. The reasons it is incorrect have been pointed out, many, many times.

Perception one checked -- yep, we perceived reality.

B. Natives are being lumped together as one monolithic culture. That has happened quite a few times in this thread, sometimes by you, DW.

Perception two checked -- reality again.

C. The continued usage of 'shaman' to refer to Native spiritual practices is problematic in the extreme.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. A word that is problematic is still problematic regardless whether some people are not offended by it or not.

As someone who's been called (among other things) a c*nt, a f*g, a d*ke, a wh*re, a r*tard, and a b*tch (and I asterisk parts of those words out because they can be triggering to folks sometimes), my choice to use those words to refer to myself in reclamation and defiance of the kyriarchy does in no way reduce the problematic-ness of those words. My not getting offended anymore if a close friend calls me f*gg*t does not mean the word is still not problematic. My reclaiming r*tard because I got called it all through school, sometimes by teachers, does not reduce the problematic-ness of the term. My personal disagreement with the term being problematic doesn't mean that it's not.

C*nt, wh*re, and b*tch are still misogynistic slurs. F*g and d*ke are still homophobic slurs. R*tard is an ableist slur.

They are all slurs, and they are still problematic from many viewpoints.

Shaman, while not exactly crouching into slur territory just yet, is very problematic. It's colonialist and oppressive terminology; it erases the traditions of living people; it is inaccurate to say the very least.

The fact that some Native folks use it to refer to their traditions so they won't confuse the white folk does not make shaman stop being a problematic term; in fact, it contributes, because as stephy said earlier in the thread: many times oppressed folks must use the terms the oppressors will understand. It's a matter of survival. The fact that some Native folks use the word simply because they like it and don't find it offensive does not stop the word from being problematic.

Which means that terminology that continues to oppress and further colonialism does so even if the person who uses it has no idea that's what it's doing.

Just like colloquial use of the word tr*nny as an insult continues to oppress trans* folk and further transphobia, even if the person who used the word as a one-off is actually quite lovely and has many trans* friends (all of whom use the term themselves, of course) and just doesn't know any better.

These words are so loaded with history and oppressive connotation that you cannot use them without bringing up that history and oppressive connotation.

So when we say "that word is problematic and we find it offensive for these reasons and it also does contribute to colonialism and oppression" this is not just perception. It's reality.

And when it comes to that reality -- the reality of genocide, both physical and cultural, the reality of residential schools, the reality of the very real, very present racism that Native folk have to deal with on a daily fucking basis -- intent counts for very little.

Oh, so you didn't intend to continue to erase traditions with the use of hugely problematic term. Oh, so you didn't intend to be misogynistic by calling someone a c*nt. Oh, so you didn't intend to cause someone to get beat to death by calling them a tr*nny.

I guess it's all well and good, then.

D. People refusing to listen when we've been trying to be as clear and polite as possible.

Well, I suppose if that hadn't happened I wouldn't be making this fucking post, would I?


So, to sum up -- the things we've perceived as happened have. That term is still problematic, which means it's problematic no matter if someone is offended by it or not. You say that our offense is somehow canceled out by other people's non-offense; that's bullshit.

You were not called a racist. Your behavior was racist; that was called out. If you cannot separate your behavior from who you are, fundamentally, as a person, then that is your problem.
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2013, 04:51:35 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101391
Politely is not the term I would use myself - then again I apparently have problems with common terms as well.


Then the worry about derailment is what exactly? Don't complain about derailment and then say it is likely to jump the tracks anyway. My derailment often included nudges to put it back on track.


So you would deny that that link about derailment describes trollish behavior in detail?

 
Ok, so, I'm just going to say these few things and then I'm bowing out, because my mental health is rapidly going down the drain with this.

1. thread drift =! derailment

2. again, no one called you a troll. If you think the behaviour described at the DFD cache reconstruction site is trollish, then why do you keep doing it?

3. I pointed out that link because it seemed you were deliberately not actually paying attention to what people had said to you, instead asking them to continue to educate you because you really wanted to know and then when people did educate you, you'd complain they were "throwing indignation around like rice at a wedding" instead of telling you what you needed (and somehow felt entitled) to know. In short, you were exhibiting classic derail behavior, and that site is meant as a satirical, tongue-in-cheek look at something that is very, very common.

4. People can still be angry about something and be polite or civil. Polite does not mean "walking on eggshells to avoid being meeeaaaaaan to people." Not even in Canada.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2013, 05:29:23 am »
Quote from: Morag;101394
Ok, so, I'm just going to say these few things and then I'm bowing out, because my mental health is rapidly going down the drain with this.

1. thread drift =! derailment


opinon

Quote
2. again, no one called you a troll. If you think the behaviour described at the DFD cache reconstruction site is trollish, then why do you keep doing it?


Your perception is that I am doing it for some nefarious reason as stated on the link, my perception is that I am asking for information. Whose perception should we measure by - yours because you are so obviously right? perhaps a read of the link might be in order.

Quote
3. I pointed out that link because it seemed you were deliberately not actually paying attention to what people had said to you, instead asking them to continue to educate you because you really wanted to know and then when people did educate you, you'd complain they were "throwing indignation around like rice at a wedding" instead of telling you what you needed (and somehow felt entitled) to know. In short, you were exhibiting classic derail behavior, and that site is meant as a satirical, tongue-in-cheek look at something that is very, very common.


I did pay attention to what people said and used what they said in follow up posts, not only in responses to them but in comments to others. Perhaps others need to pay attention as well and not just assume my intents.

Also I was linking and using outside sources, and did not just say I was correct because I was speaking. When there was a difference of opinion and I asked for clarification, I got more accusation of fostering colonialism instead of explaination of the differences.

However I was also holding three separate conversations with people and was often playing catch-up to a series of posts. So if some of the posts seemed disjointed, I can understand the confusion, but if people paid attention to whom and to which posts I was responding and tracked the conversation threads it might make more sense.

Quote
4. People can still be angry about something and be polite or civil. Polite does not mean "walking on eggshells to avoid being meeeaaaaaan to people." Not even in Canada.


but isn't that exactly what started this, some people accusing others of being mean and rude. However several of those posts I would not characterize as polite or civil, just as I am sure they might feel the same about my posts.

Heck, there was even a complaint about the way I used quote marks because they assumed I was was being sarcastic or scary, whatever that means. Did they ask why I used quotes in the manner I did, nope, I was the bad guy and I must have been doing it for a bad reason. And even when I said I used quotes for emphasis, it was the wrong answer and I had to change to suit them. All very beginner-friendly I am sure.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2013, 06:41:41 am »
Quote from: Morag;101393
They have been. Multiple times. If you don't have the time, energy, or inclination to read through the thread and find the answers you seek, what makes you think any of us want to do it for you?


As I said, I did listen, and used the information accordingly in responses to them and others.

However I also did point out there was conflict between what they and what others were saying. The links to the Mohawk Shaman and the Cherokee Medicine Person description. In those cases I asked for clarification - for which you accuse me of derailing the thread - and the responses were essentially because they say so.

I provided links and information on where I was getting the information, did they respond in kind? Nyk did and there was further civil discussion on it And he has said what he has considered acceptable, and I used those terms since. So I don't get where you or others say I am not reading their posts, evidence speaks otherwise.



Quote
....wow.

You really don't understand this?

Ok, so, here's something that may help explain. As an example.

I have been abused. Quite a bit, actually, and we know that the abuse thing is a cycle. This means that sometimes, I tend to exhibit the same behaviors that my abusers did.

I'm conscious of this, and I work really really hard to not exhibit those behaviours. But I'm also human, and sometimes that shit just comes out, because I err.

Does that make me an abuser? For forever? Am I an abuser now, because I've repeated the cycle on occasion but have worked hard to not be one? Does my occasional shitty behaviour make me for forever a shitty human being with no recourse to change?

Because that's what you're saying when you say that your behaviour comes from who you are, fundamentally, not what you've been taught or subjected to your whole life. And if that's what you think about people, then I'm just going to call you Javert from now on.


First off, I want to say I am sorry that you were abused. It is sad when it happens to anybody, especially as it shouldn't happen at all. You're not the only one, and while you weren't specific on the type, I can sympathize to some extent.

However it would depend on what you classify as shitty behavior - just being in a bad mood and snappy with everyone wouldn't qualify, beating up on someone smaller and/or dependent on you to take out frustration would because it does continue the cycle.

I don't mean to drag up bad memories, but this is your example. Would you say your abusers demonstrated abusive behavior? If they were of the type that goes all sorry and contrite afterwards, does that change of behavior make them any less of an abuser? The guy who swears he will never hit his wife again for the dozenth time, is he really not an abuser because his behavior is not angry 24/7? Not by my definition.

 

Quote
Ok, fine. You perceive that you were called a racist.

You weren't, but whatever. You think you were, and also apparently that's the worst thing that could ever be said to you. (Oh, if only some of us were so lucky.)


I never said it was the worst, just stating what I felt was being said - apparently my feelings don't matter because I am the bad guy in all this. I have to walk on eggshells because someone might be offended, but when it is turned around, I just need to get a thicker skin - I really hope that you can see the hypocracy of that.

Quote
Some of us are perceiving that a) Natives are being called shamans and that's incorrect; b) that Natives are being lumped in together as one monolithic culture,  and that's incorrect; c) that the continued usage of the word shaman is problematic -- that is to say, colonialist, oppressive, and erasive of actual lived traditions and people -- to the extreme when used willy-nilly to refer to Native belief systems; d) that people seem to be refusing to listen when we say "This word is a problem; here's why; please do your research if you want to refer to someone from a particular tribe in that sort of role".


a/ That statement is a generalization. It is not inherently incorrect when some Natives use that term themselves or accept that term from outsiders.

b/ This may well be valid, but I have asked several times for differences between the cultures, not to derail the thread but for expansion of statements they made. There has been some response, which was talked about and then there were more questions - that is called a discussion.

c/ Which is why I have more often used the term medicine man which both Nyk and the Cherokee Tribal website say are acceptable terms. Stephy states that when Cherokees use the term, they don't mean it in the classical way she thinks I see it as, but since there seems to be some disparity between her and the tribal website I asked for clarification again - again for sincere information, not to derail a thread - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a question is just a question.

d/ I have done research, and provided links, but that research seems at odds with what they are saying, so what should be followed, who has authority?


Quote
So. Let's break this down, shall we?

A. Natives have been called shamans, in this very thread. It is incorrect. The reasons it is incorrect have been pointed out, many, many times.

Perception one checked -- yep, we perceived reality.


See a/ above - perception not completely valid in view of facts. As stephydh would say, more reading comprehension needed.

Quote
B. Natives are being lumped together as one monolithic culture. That has happened quite a few times in this thread, sometimes by you, DW.

Perception two checked -- reality again.


I can admit to this and that I sometimes did lump them together. However other times I highlighted differences too.

Quote
C. The continued usage of 'shaman' to refer to Native spiritual practices is problematic in the extreme.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. A word that is problematic is still problematic regardless whether some people are not offended by it or not.

As someone who's been called (among other things) a c*nt, a f*g, a d*ke, a wh*re, a r*tard, and a b*tch (and I asterisk parts of those words out because they can be triggering to folks sometimes), my choice to use those words to refer to myself in reclamation and defiance of the kyriarchy does in no way reduce the problematic-ness of those words. My not getting offended anymore if a close friend calls me f*gg*t does not mean the word is still not problematic. My reclaiming r*tard because I got called it all through school, sometimes by teachers, does not reduce the problematic-ness of the term. My personal disagreement with the term being problematic doesn't mean that it's not.

C*nt, wh*re, and b*tch are still misogynistic slurs. F*g and d*ke are still homophobic slurs. R*tard is an ableist slur.

They are all slurs, and they are still problematic from many viewpoints.

Shaman, while not exactly crouching into slur territory just yet, is very problematic. It's colonialist and oppressive terminology; it erases the traditions of living people; it is inaccurate to say the very least.

The fact that some Native folks use it to refer to their traditions so they won't confuse the white folk does not make shaman stop being a problematic term; in fact, it contributes, because as stephy said earlier in the thread: many times oppressed folks must use the terms the oppressors will understand. It's a matter of survival. The fact that some Native folks use the word simply because they like it and don't find it offensive does not stop the word from being problematic.

Which means that terminology that continues to oppress and further colonialism does so even if the person who uses it has no idea that's what it's doing.

Just like colloquial use of the word tr*nny as an insult continues to oppress trans* folk and further transphobia, even if the person who used the word as a one-off is actually quite lovely and has many trans* friends (all of whom use the term themselves, of course) and just doesn't know any better.

These words are so loaded with history and oppressive connotation that you cannot use them without bringing up that history and oppressive connotation.

So when we say "that word is problematic and we find it offensive for these reasons and it also does contribute to colonialism and oppression" this is not just perception. It's reality.

And when it comes to that reality -- the reality of genocide, both physical and cultural, the reality of residential schools, the reality of the very real, very present racism that Native folk have to deal with on a daily fucking basis -- intent counts for very little.

Oh, so you didn't intend to continue to erase traditions with the use of hugely problematic term. Oh, so you didn't intend to be misogynistic by calling someone a c*nt. Oh, so you didn't intend to cause someone to get beat to death by calling them a tr*nny.

I guess it's all well and good, then.


That's a lot of meaning to stuff in a little word. Now let's also look at another type of history, just as real as what you have shown - where words and the meanings change over time.

Since you used similar terms in the rant above, please don't be offended by the word, but let's take gay. As little as 50 years ago, it was common usage and meant joyful and/or happy with no connection at all to homosexuality. The term is now used differently and in a derogatory manner full of offense.

Let's take Causcasian which meant someone from the Caucaus Mountain regions of Eurasia, but has come to be a generic term for anyone who is white regardless of their ancestral heritage.

Now let's move to Shaman, which once was associated to a specific region, but has come to mean a type of spiritual practice meeting certain requirements which was listed in one of the upthread links. As was also pointed out there is ongoing discussion, and not just but the mean oppressive whiteys, including with several Native leaders on whether that definition can be expanded to include qualified practices from every continent or reduced back to something closer to the historical reference. This is part of that thing you keep talking about called research.

However if you want to talk about terms that must be avoided because they are problematic I can show you how sometimes that can be ridiculous. Last month was Black History Month - yet the term Black can be problematic because some people are offended by the term. I have had discussion with people usually after some news story with a racial slant, and they have said "I'm not Black I'm African-American" or "colored". Others have said exactly the opposite. Should we then just stop the rememberence because the term is problematic for some people? Where does the line get drawn?


Quote
D. People refusing to listen when we've been trying to be as clear and polite as possible.

Well, I suppose if that hadn't happened I wouldn't be making this fucking post, would I?


If no one was listening there would be no posts because they wouldn't be worth responding too. As far as clear and polite - clear as mud and polite as a dockworker. But I am sure the same is likely to be said about me. Remember the scary quotes are on the horizon.



Quote
So, to sum up -- the things we've perceived as happened have. That term is still problematic, which means it's problematic no matter if someone is offended by it or not. You say that our offense is somehow canceled out by other people's non-offense; that's bullshit.


I have never said it didn't offend some - what I did say, repeatedly, was it didn't offend all as I objected to blanket statements otherwise. But that goes back to reading again.

Quote
You were not called a racist. Your behavior was racist; that was called out. If you cannot separate your behavior from who you are, fundamentally, as a person, then that is your problem.


that may be your perception, mine is otherwise, and what is perceived happened, right?
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Dark Waters

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2013, 07:40:01 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101399
a/ That statement is a generalization. It is not inherently incorrect when some Natives use that term themselves or accept that term from outsiders.

 
I did want to add one thing - you seem to be using 3 terms interchangeably: incorrect, problematic and offensive.

They are not the same thing. A term can be one or more of these without being all of them.

ex. A naval fighter jock is not a pilot, they are aviators. This is because in the navy pilots are drivers of small boats. If you were to call an aviator pilot, the term would be incorrect, but it isn't problematic because the position does exist nor is it particularly offensive.

In this case I do agree the term Shaman can be problematic due to its historical, as opposed to modern, usage and meaning. And I do agree it can be offensive to some. But with the modern usage, I can not agree that it is inherently incorrect.

I hope that viewpoint may clear up some of what I was trying to say earlier.

Anyway - I am going to be out and about for the weekend and may not have much computer time, so I will check in next week - hope you all have a great weekend.
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2013, 08:33:00 am »
Quote from: Morag;101393
They have been. Multiple times. If you don't have the time, energy, or inclination to read through the thread and find the answers you seek, what makes you think any of us want to do it for you?

....wow.

You really don't understand this?

Ok, so, here's something that may help explain. As an example.


So this is relevant, for further explanation of privilege and oppression. If anyone wants to hear Sage and Morag saying some fantastic things about privilege and oppression in a bit more detail, they were on my podcast a couple of weeks ago to discuss the subject of privilege in Paganism. And they were awesome.
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Catherine

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2013, 11:46:48 am »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101373
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, I was using the fact I found a Mohawk ancestor in my family tree as a starting point to find out some facts about the tribe, not to say that because some some distant g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-great grandfather was Mohawk that I was in any way part of the tribe or claiming expert knowledge of their deep hidden practices. The rest of my references came from either the tribal websites or sites of individual members.

 
I was responding, in a general way, to a specific thing that Nyktipolos posted, not the thing you posted. You can tell by the way I quoted Nyktipolos, not you.

It wasn't about you, specifically, it was about a thing that happens often and really bothers me when it does.

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2013, 09:16:43 pm »
Quote from: Morag;101394
1. thread drift =! derailment

 
Quote from: Dark Waters;101397
opinon

 
As TC staff, I can tell you that TC policy does not consider derailment to be the same thing as thread drift.  That's a matter of opinion in that other forums (and other people) might see it differently - but you're not on "other forums" right now.

While I'm on the subject of "how things are done on TC" - no, calling someone out for exhibiting racist behavior is not the same thing as saying they're a racist, nor is it a personal attack.

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2013, 09:52:55 pm »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101401
I did want to add one thing - you seem to be using 3 terms interchangeably: incorrect, problematic and offensive.

They are not the same thing. A term can be one or more of these without being all of them.

 
It didn't seem that way to me.  It seemed to me that Morag was taking great care to use each of them distinctly and precisely, choosing which to use based on which denotations and connotations zie meant.  In particular, I noticed that zie was largely avoiding the use of "offensive" except in very specific contexts - this is in distinct contrast to your (especially earlier) posts, in which "offensive" and "offended" appeared repeatedly, being used as if it was the catchall term for NA/FN reactions to things they objected to.

Granted, you've been using it less frequently in your more recent posts (though still as if "offensiveness" was the primary reason for oppressed/marginalized groups to object to a term), but while I'm glad to hear that you do understand there are differences, your overall track record in this thread means I'm not convinced on how well you understand what those differences are.

(Personally, I'm of the opinion that, in conversations of this sort, "offensive" and related words need to take a long walk off a short pier.  "Offended" is a very poor and inaccurate description of oppressed/marginalized folks' reaction to oppression and marginalization.)

Sunflower
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #115 on: March 17, 2013, 01:44:31 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;101481
(Personally, I'm of the opinion that, in conversations of this sort, "offensive" and related words need to take a long walk off a short pier.  "Offended" is a very poor and inaccurate description of oppressed/marginalized folks' reaction to oppression and marginalization.)

 
I kind of thought I had a third pertinent link on my other browser, and when I looked I found I was right, I did.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #116 on: March 18, 2013, 07:19:21 pm »
Quote from: Cryfder;98152
Great book! Though I don't consider myself a witch it is very useful and takes you step by step.

 
I've read the book and found it useful. I'm thinking about buying it and keeping it in a very safe place.

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Re: Non wiccan witchcraft?
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2013, 05:18:54 pm »
Quote from: Dark Waters;101298

See you are generalizing too. According to Stephydh, her medicine people aren't spirit workers, just healers. The spiritual side is spread among the elders who are more teachers than workers if I understood her post correctly. You see the slippery slope there. You made an assumption and used a name you knew for the concept you thought of - someone might or might not take offense at it. What then?

 
No, I said to call SPIRIT WORKERS spirit workers.  Not "all shaman-like people" spirit workers.

It's very simple.  Do you work with spirits?  then spirit worker.  Do you NOT work with spirits?  then NOT.  And now I'm not using a term that doesn't apply, because if it doesn't apply DON'T USE IT.

I'm talking about using words that give room to discuss.  If someone uses "shaman" you're actually shutting down discussion.  I think I know what you mean, you think you know what you mean, DONE.  If you want to discuss the realities of real people, use words that don't mean SOMEONE ELSE.

You're wanting to use a word that you THINK you know what it means because it's easy.  The problem is, it's also WRONG.  If you want to talk about actual Native American beliefs, don't use a word that implies something they're NOT EVEN DOING.

If what you want is a way to say "oh they're all REALLY doing X and so let's talk about X" by all means, keep using shaman.  But recognize that you're erasing the very people you're pretending to talk about when you're doing it.

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