Help Me Please

[Tannhauser]

Hello,
I have a strange tale to tell. Because of it I am on the verge of ending my life.

I should like to give a bit of background on my beliefs before I start. I was brought up a Roman Catholic and was bog-standard mainstream in terms of belief and practice. I just accepted what the Church taught without exception. I didn't question it at all, nor did I go too deep into it or become over-zealous. I have also been active as an organist within the church for over twenty years. I believed in Christ.

That was until 2013.

The years leading up to 2013 were the most traumatic in my life. Firstly, I was on dialysis for six years, followed by a transplant and all the guilt and stress that comes with accepting an organ from a brain dead donor. I fear now that the person whose organ now resides in my body may have held beliefs that were totally incompatible with mine. I could have been forgiven for thinking that 2012 (the year I received my transplant) would see a return to normality for me. But then a year later I started to have spiritual experiences that were not Christian in any way, shape or form. They were Pagan, they were the gods of ancient Rome and Greece. Why was Jesus Christ not forming a part of these experiences? Could it be he doesn't exist or ever existed? Could he have been a fabrication? I didn't understand at all. There were energies flowing into my head and through my body, but I didn't know (and still don't know) were they were coming from.

Fast forward to my latest experience, and the one that has really started to spook me. The experience was/is of the Greek goddess Artemis. She did lots of things to get my attention: a face in a log fire, a strategically placed Deer Hunter record (found on top of an icon of the Virgin Mary), lots of arrow/archer symbolism and her continual presence on Pinterest (though I deliberately didn't pick any of her 'pins') along with the animals associated with her. Too much coincidence. And now she has morphed into Hekate, and I am getting LOTS of Witchcraft imagery and spells. I am not, nor have ever been, into witchcraft, and am not supposed to touch it with a barge pole. She has successfully killed my Christian beliefs, and Christ along with them. (As I understand it, she is also known as 'saviour'.) I can't deny that she is real, nor can I go on believing that Christ is real, because he isn't. For if he was real, it would be him putting in an appearance, not least to stop my faith being wrecked. But no, he doesn't exist. And neither does Mary. The real Queen of Heaven has made her presence known.

And so here I am on a Pagan forum, wondering what on earth I am going to do now. I cannot continue at church, it would be hypocritical. But leaving won't be easy either, it will cause a lot of upset to my mother and the friends I know at church. I have contemplated suicide several times, it seems an easier option than the upheaval and grief that awaits me. Everything I believed has been shattered into pieces. The other option I have (which I have a strong urge to do) is to simply leave home and try to find or create a new life for myself.

You will probably think I am insane. That's fine. I have heard it before. My parish priest and his exorcist friend both probably thought I was as mad as cheese, it would explain why they refused to help me on three separate occasions. But this isn't something a doctor can fix.

Best wishes,
Tannhauser

[Jainarayan]

Hello,
I have a strange tale to tell. Because of it I am on the verge of ending my life.

I should like to give a bit of background on my beliefs before I start. I was brought up a Roman Catholic and was bog-standard mainstream in terms of belief and practice. I just accepted what the Church taught without exception. I didn't question it at all, nor did I go too deep into it or become over-zealous. I have also been active as an organist within the church for over twenty years. I believed in Christ.

That was until 2013.

The years leading up to 2013 were the most traumatic in my life. Firstly, I was on dialysis for six years, followed by a transplant and all the guilt and stress that comes with accepting an organ from a brain dead donor. I fear now that the person whose organ now resides in my body may have held beliefs that were totally incompatible with mine. I could have been forgiven for thinking that 2012 (the year I received my transplant) would see a return to normality for me. But then a year later I started to have spiritual experiences that were not Christian in any way, shape or form. They were Pagan, they were the gods of ancient Rome and Greece. Why was Jesus Christ not forming a part of these experiences? Could it be he doesn't exist or ever existed? Could he have been a fabrication? I didn't understand at all. There were energies flowing into my head and through my body, but I didn't know (and still don't know) were they were coming from.

Fast forward to my latest experience, and the one that has really started to spook me. The experience was/is of the Greek goddess Artemis. She did lots of things to get my attention: a face in a log fire, a strategically placed Deer Hunter record (found on top of an icon of the Virgin Mary), lots of arrow/archer symbolism and her continual presence on Pinterest (though I deliberately didn't pick any of her 'pins') along with the animals associated with her. Too much coincidence. And now she has morphed into Hekate, and I am getting LOTS of Witchcraft imagery and spells. I am not, nor have ever been, into witchcraft, and am not supposed to touch it with a barge pole. She has successfully killed my Christian beliefs, and Christ along with them. (As I understand it, she is also known as 'saviour'.) I can't deny that she is real, nor can I go on believing that Christ is real, because he isn't. For if he was real, it would be him putting in an appearance, not least to stop my faith being wrecked. But no, he doesn't exist. And neither does Mary. The real Queen of Heaven has made her presence known.

And so here I am on a Pagan forum, wondering what on earth I am going to do now. I cannot continue at church, it would be hypocritical. But leaving won't be easy either, it will cause a lot of upset to my mother and the friends I know at church. I have contemplated suicide several times, it seems an easier option than the upheaval and grief that awaits me. Everything I believed has been shattered into pieces. The other option I have (which I have a strong urge to do) is to simply leave home and try to find or create a new life for myself.

You will probably think I am insane. That's fine. I have heard it before. My parish priest and his exorcist friend both probably thought I was as mad as cheese, it would explain why they refused to help me on three separate occasions. But this isn't something a doctor can fix.

Best wishes,
Tannhauser

I'm truly sorry you're experiencing such pain and anguish. Unfortunately it's not all that uncommon. It seem s to be especially rampant among (former) Catholics, as I was. I do not think you are insane, and I certainly don't think suicide is the solution. Please abandon that thought, OK?

That said, have you considered that there may be a middle way between being drawn to a path that your religious upbringing forbids, and that former religious path or system? Consider that much of what we were taught as (former) Catholics is a dogmatic controlling set of legalistic edicts. I haven't been Christian in 30 years, and I'm none the worse for wear for it. The reason is that I consider the possibility that Jesus is another deity in another pantheon, no different than any 'pagan' or indigenous European or Asian deity.

It's possible and highly likely imo that he was elevated to supreme godhood by people with an agenda... the agenda to promote him to primacy. If you can accept that, then I think it follows that as "just another deity", he might release you from his service, as any other deity would, because he knows you are being called to another way. This may sound like a lot of woo-woo and upg, even mus (made up shit), but in pagan paths, all bets are off as far as dogmatics.

[ehbowen]

You will probably think I am insane. That's fine. I have heard it before. My parish priest and his exorcist friend both probably thought I was as mad as cheese, it would explain why they refused to help me on three separate occasions. But this isn't something a doctor can fix.

I do have a Christian background and am currently a member of a very conservative Baptist congregation, but I also believe that our theology about the realities of the spiritual world is lacking information in many cases. It is more complex than we can fathom. Anyhow, even though we approach the issue from opposite viewpoints, I echo Jainarayan's advice that suicide is NOT the way out. In my way of thinking, spiritual and physical struggles are often a sign that Someone divine is trying to ID you...your 'core being', your soul...in order to be able to rescue you. Suicide is giving in to the forces which wish to drag you down.

[ehbowen]

...I also believe that our theology about the realities of the spiritual world is lacking information in many cases. It is more complex than we can fathom.

By The Way, one of those complexities is tied in with the fact that we are physical creatures and so physical remedies can have a real effect. Psychoactive medication may not be able to reverse the root of the matter, which is spiritual, but it can often provide enough of a crutch to help you endure the spiritual 'pressure' you are under. I would encourage you to seek medical treatment from a psychiatrist. He will probably try to tell you that the cause is a "chemical imbalance" in your brain that medication will treat. The actual cause is almost certainly spiritual, as I said before, but the "chemical imbalance" is a real physical link in the process. Take his advice and take the medication which he prescribes while continuing to seek out spiritual guidance and counsel to address the real root cause of your dilemma.

[Jenett]

And so here I am on a Pagan forum, wondering what on earth I am going to do now. I cannot continue at church, it would be hypocritical. But leaving won't be easy either, it will cause a lot of upset to my mother and the friends I know at church. I have contemplated suicide several times, it seems an easier option than the upheaval and grief that awaits me. Everything I believed has been shattered into pieces. The other option I have (which I have a strong urge to do) is to simply leave home and try to find or create a new life for myself.

So, first of all, you're not alone - what you describe is a thing that a number of people come to.

The first thing I want to note is that getting a transplant is a huge thing - not only how you feel about having a transplant, but the changes it brings in your life afterwards. Did you get any counselling support or therapy about the process and the changes (i.e. mental health support, not medical?) If you didn't, that might be something you want to consider exploring, separately from other things you're thinking about.

From the way you describe it here, it sounds like that's something you're still conflicted about in complex ways (understandably!) As someone whose father was an organ donor, personally, it brought me a great deal of peace to know that he'd continued to help people live as fully as possible after he died. (I'm in the US, where organ donation is a deliberate decision by the individual or family, not just benefiting from somoene's misfortune. I'm not sure where you are, or if that's true, but I bet in many cases it's also a choice for the people involved.)

I was actually a convert to Catholicism (at age 11, when my parents returned to the Catholic Church: they'd been Episcopalian since before I was born) and was active as a Catholic up until the tail end of college, when I hit some of the same things you're dealing with and some different things. (And since then, my mother's become a lay sister in a religious order...)

So, one thing to know is that there's a long history of magic that is related to Catholicism. (After all, it's pretty hard to argue that transsubstantiation doesn't have magic). There are tons of people, over millenia, whose lives have included both folk magic and sincere, devout, active Catholicism.

While the official teachings of the Church obviously don't go there, the reality is a lot less dualistic good/bad than you're describing it here. If you've spent most of your time in a very conservative or homogenous parish, that may be a lot harder to see.

It might be helpful to think about this in three different pieces. They obviously overlap and affect each other, but breaking it apart may help you figure out better answers that work for you. I'm going to keep the following fairly short, and not go into how to do some of the things that might be options here - but please ask if they sound interesting or possibly helpful to you.

1) Different deities
2) Witchcraft
3) Community, and what might change for you if you changed religions.

1) Different deities

There are a lot of different approaches to deity. Personally, I'm polytheistic: I continue to have a tremendous amount of respect for Jesus Christ, and what he taught (and I read Koine Greek, so I've read it in as close to the original as we're going to get...)

He is no longer the deity I work with, or focus on, or worship - but I treasure the time I did. (Among other things, I am really clear that particular deity relationship got me through the death of my father when I was a teenager.) I still believe Jesus exists, is a deity, doing his things. But it's like believing someone in Australia exists and is doing their thing: it's mostly not terribly relevant to my own life.

If other deities are showing up in your life, there are lots of ways you can go about doing something about that, if you choose to. (There are also ways to say "Thank you, no." if you'd rather.) You get to decide how and when you want to work on building new relationships.

It's also possible for you to change in ways that change your relationships - including with deities. That may be what happened with you with Jesus, I can't tell from here, but it's a thing that happens to many people (and within polytheistic practice, too.) Just like sometimes you can be amazing friends with someone, and then your lives change, and you remember them fondly, but you don't talk much anymore, sometimes that happens with deities. It doesn't have to mean something is wrong or bad or you messed up.

2) Witchcraft

Like I said above, witchcraft is part of a folk magic tradition - again, without knowing where you are, it's hard to give some specific examples, but there are lots of ways to do it. Many places have a long history of folk magic around healing, blessings, protection, or things like improving yourself and situation without harming others. Obviously, there are also tradition around hurting people, or causing harm or evil, but you don't have to do those even if you're a witch.

On this one, I'd encourage you to read past threads here, the different kinds of magical experiences people have, and see what you think of different things. Don't make rapid judgements, just take in information. Be cautious about assuming that what people talk about online is entirely accurate (even here, though this forum is pretty good about people calling out the 'hey, that sounds a bit out there').

As I was describing to one of my students in my tradition earlier this week, there's a lot of what I call 'ooky-spooky-witchy-in-the-night' stuff out there, especially on places that are image-heavy like Pinterest and Instagram, that doesn't necessarily reflect what people are actually doing, or how it works. (Same way we all know many of those people have lives that are not all perfectly plated meals, immaculately tidy homes, and endless beach vacations, right?)

Over time, you'll start to develop a sense for who is sincere, thoughtful, and has a practice that's rooted in sustainable practical places, that works for them.

3) Community, and what might change for you if you changed religions

You're very right that backing off from your religious community is complicated, and there are so many things tied into that. (I'm guessing in your case, that you may also feel guilty because your family and religious community supported you before and during and after your transplant?)

Here's the good news: people take breaks from their community all the time. It's okay to say "Look, I need to reflect for a bit, can I hand over X responsibility for a while" It's okay to find times to connect with people outside the church community, or try meeting different people.

(And I know plenty of church musicians who are delighted to play music for a parish or congregation, but whose own religious practices and beliefs are different than the place they play. In some ways, that can be easier, since music ministry is wonderful - did it myself for a decade - but can disconnect you from participating as a member of the community.)

So what I'd suggest you consider is arranging to take a break for at least a few months. If you can find someone who is open to a variety of religious experiences who is also a trained counsellor, that might be a really good idea, just to have a sounding board outside your head. My usual suggestion for this within Catholicism are Jesuits: the Ignatian Examen process can be really helpful in figuring out what's going on in your head, but there are lots of other possibilities, including non-Catholics. You just need someone who is open-minded about what the end result looks like.

That will give you some space to explore, and if you do decide to leave Catholicism, it will help blunt some of the issues for your family (they'll have a bit more time to get used to the idea.)

In the meantime, reading more about modern Pagan and polytheistic practice won't hurt, and may help you figure out specific questions and ideas to work through. (I have a website, called Seeking, that focuses on an introduction to religious witchcraft, some of which may be helpful in giving you context.)

And people here are likely to be willing to help answer specific questions you have, and point you at more resources.

[Tannhauser]

Thanks for all your help on this. There are a few things I would like to respond to.

Jenett said:

There are tons of people, over millenia, whose lives have included both folk magic and sincere, devout, active Catholicism.

I think it is possible for this to be the case, but they would certainly have to keep it a secret. As we know, the Catholic Church burned people at the stake for such things as folk magic and witchcraft. I mean, if you are Catholic you really have to buy into the dogma and doctrines, and that is one reason I have a growing hatred of it.

While the official teachings of the Church obviously don't go there, the reality is a lot less dualistic good/bad than you're describing it here

I strongly disagree. When I hear the word Pagan mentioned in church by a priest, it is usually with negative connotations of evil. No, everyone MUST believe in mainstream, manufactured Christianity...or else.

Personally, I'm polytheistic: I continue to have a tremendous amount of respect for Jesus Christ

I no longer have any respect for this persona. As far as I am concerned, he is a mere fabrication of Rome. All the experiences I have had support this. All my experiences have been of Pagan gods. I tried praying to this Jesus character but I didn't feel anything at all. I have lost all belief in him now.

Like I said above, witchcraft is part of a folk magic tradition

Witchcraft/folk magic is the reality of the situation. Where this Christian fable came from I have no idea, and I am deeply hurt that I have wasted over 20 years of my life on something that turned out not to be true. So now I am going to have to start all over again and it is going to be very hard.

If you can find someone who is open to a variety of religious experiences who is also a trained counsellor, that might be a really good idea,

I already tried speaking to my parish priest about this on three separate occasions. Pardon my French, but he was fucking useless. I can't yet decide whether he thought I was a genius or insane, but he didn't even bother praying with or for me. He was just flummoxed. On the third occasion, he contacted his exorcist friend on the phone and then passed him to me. I really thought I might be getting somewhere. But it seems that his exorcist friend was having a day off, and really couldn't be bothered with me. He told me to see my GP. How's that for spiritual advice? That's the sort of advice I can get from anyone in my family, or anyone on the street. Fuck the Catholic Church and its career priests. I am definately leaving. My problem is that I care too much what other people think.

ehbowen said:

I would encourage you to seek medical treatment from a psychiatrist. He will probably try to tell you that the cause is a "chemical imbalance" in your brain that medication will treat.

Great. Have you any idea how much medication I am already on for physical ailments? Well, I'll tell you, its a LOT. I take anti-rejection drugs, steroids, statins, drugs for osteoporosis, drugs for blood pressure and now I have to take more? Is this some sort of sick joke?

Someone divine is trying to ID you...your 'core being', your soul...in order to be able to rescue you

Rescue me? 'They' are destroying me.

Jainaryan said:

I haven't been Christian in 30 years, and I'm none the worse for wear for it. The reason is that I consider the possibility that Jesus is another deity in another pantheon, no different than any 'pagan' or indigenous European or Asian deity.

I absolutely agree. He has been elevated to a ridiculous level, yet he is no better than Mithras or Dionysus. I am now inclined to believe that the resurrection didn't happen physically at all, as the Muslims believe. We've all bought into this shit for hundreds of years, but honestly, its crap. The reality is very different. That is what is so upsetting.

Best wishes,
Tannhauser

[ehbowen]

Thanks for all your help on this. There are a few things I would like to respond to.
I no longer have any respect for this persona. As far as I am concerned, he is a mere fabrication of Rome. All the experiences I have had support this. All my experiences have been of Pagan gods. I tried praying to this Jesus character but I didn't feel anything at all. I have lost all belief in him now.

Well, as they say around here, Your Mileage May Vary. But I am convinced that Jesus not only hears me, but that he has arranged for me to spend face-to-face time with his own sister and his own father. Most of it was several decades in the past and I didn't realize it until later...but I'm hungry for more.

ehbowen said:
Great. Have you any idea how much medication I am already on for physical ailments? Well, I'll tell you, its a LOT. I take anti-rejection drugs, steroids, statins, drugs for osteoporosis, drugs for blood pressure and now I have to take more? Is this some sort of sick joke?

No, it's not a joke; it's borne out of personal experience. A direct spiritual contact is an overwhelming experience...as you have already encountered. In my case, once I realized who that girl I'd met in the amusement park five years previously actually was (after an encounter with her in a dream), I went through experiences which were analogous to many of those you have related.

I did not have the physical afflictions that you are bearing up under, that is true. And I can see where you would be reluctant to add more medications to your daily cocktail. But, in my experience, the psychiatric medication acted as a kind of "shield" to dampen out the spiritual pressure that I was under from both sides (Satan is as real to me as Jesus is). It will never "cure" the root of the situation...the medication is only physical, and the root of the situation is spiritual...but it has been helpful for reducing distractions as I go along the way.

Rescue me? 'They' are destroying me.

You can't tell the players without a scorecard. Remember this: "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly (John 10:10, NKJV)." Now, while you are certainly free to make the choice to regard everything within the pages of the Scripture as a lie, I have found it to be reliable. So, in light of that verse, is it any wonder as to whom I conclude is trying to destroy you?

[Jenett]

I think it is possible for this to be the case, but they would certainly have to keep it a secret. As we know, the Catholic Church burned people at the stake for such things as folk magic and witchcraft. I mean, if you are Catholic you really have to buy into the dogma and doctrines, and that is one reason I have a growing hatred of it.

This is something where it really depends where you are - my great-grandmother, in a small (Catholic) village in Hungary was a folk magic healer, apparently, and very Catholic. A number of traditions in Central and South America combine Catholicism and magical practice. Lots of people in other parts of the world include it as part of their practice. There are definitely places where it's treated as you describe: my point is that that particular aspect of the Catholic church is not actually as hard and solid as the formal Church heirarchy would like you to believe. 

(Again, I don't know where you are, but in the US, there are a number of progressive Catholic parishes. They sometimes get stomped on from above in the hierarchy, but they still exist, and there are plenty of people who find what they need there, and who are also part of other practices and traditions. For that matter, my confirmation sponsor as a Catholic was also regularly attending a very progressive synogogue, and other religious communities on a regular basis at the time.)

I'm not saying this to say you should change your mind - just that knowing that the particular iteration of Catholicism you have experience with is not actually the only one out there, and that you may find useful resources from people coming from other experiences with the Catholic Church, about ways to approach what you're feeling now, without completely demonising everything you've experienced in the past.

(For one thing, if you can make peace of some sort, you may find it easier to deal with your family, friends, and community who remain Catholic, even if that's not the thing you want, need, or choose for yourself. I'm not saying you need to do that immediately - lots of people need to have a decisive breakup with an ex-partner or an ex-religion to move forward. But I am suggesting you may want to leave the door open for a less dualistic approach down the road if you can.)

I already tried speaking to my parish priest about this on three separate occasions.

You'll notice I didn't suggest you speak to your parish priest (it was clear from your original post that wasn't going to work for you.) Rather, I suggested someone with significant professional counselling training. I'm really sorry you didn't get the support and advice you were hoping for, but your parish priest is not the only person who can provide that support out there.

Parish priests get more counselling training than - well, more than your average Pagan priest or priestess has unless they've also done professional training in the field. But most of it deals with a fairly limited range (issues many people have: pre-marital counselling, grief, etc.) Stuff outside that range is maybe outside their scope.

Finding a trained counsellor who can work with religious context can be tricky, but a lot of people do manage it. (I'm suggesting finding someone with the ability to deal with the religious background because some counsellors and therapists are not good at that part, and I think that might not be a great use of your time.)

As for the suggestion to consult a doctor, that's what clergy are supposed to do. It is standard advice in many religious traditions that if you're having upsetting spiritual experiences, rule out anything physical/medical/biochemical first. Once you've done that, then see what else is going on. (You will get the same advice from Pagans, too, at least the sensible ones. Biochemistry can do really weird things inside our heads and bodies.)

It's especially true for formal exorcism process: I gather there's a checklist of requirements, and they have to ensure other possible issues have been entirely ruled out before they can get permission for anything more complex than the ordinary pastoral counselling approaches.

Talking to a doctor or other medically trained professional doesn't mean you have to try meds - there may be other suggestions that make sense for you. (I totally get that adding one more med can be overwhelming, and of course there are issues with interactions to consider, too.)

But when you're taking a lot of meds, it's also possible that some of what you're feeling is being driven by the meds, and that's something medical professionals generally want to know, so they can consider adjustments. (My medical professionals certainly do.) It can be as simple as a vitamin deficiency - a lot of meds change how we process nutrition, and certain deficiencies can do a huge number on our brain, and on depression in particular. (The ones I'm most aware of are B and D, but there are others.)

To the point: changing religions won't fix everything for you, if part of the issue is biochemical. It may suggest some alternate options for dealing with things, or give you some tools to help you process specific things you feel and want (and make progress on what you want), but it isn't a cure-all. A steady exploration, using all the tools available to you, usually works out a lot better in the end.

[Tannhauser]

Well, as they say around here, Your Mileage May Vary. But I am convinced that Jesus not only hears me, but that he has arranged for me to spend face-to-face time with his own sister and his own father. Most of it was several decades in the past and I didn't realize it until later...but I'm hungry for more.

No, it's not a joke; it's borne out of personal experience. A direct spiritual contact is an overwhelming experience...as you have already encountered. In my case, once I realized who that girl I'd met in the amusement park five years previously actually was (after an encounter with her in a dream), I went through experiences which were analogous to many of those you have related.

I did not have the physical afflictions that you are bearing up under, that is true. And I can see where you would be reluctant to add more medications to your daily cocktail. But, in my experience, the psychiatric medication acted as a kind of "shield" to dampen out the spiritual pressure that I was under from both sides (Satan is as real to me as Jesus is). It will never "cure" the root of the situation...the medication is only physical, and the root of the situation is spiritual...but it has been helpful for reducing distractions as I go along the way.

You can't tell the players without a scorecard. Remember this: "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly (John 10:10, NKJV)." Now, while you are certainly free to make the choice to regard everything within the pages of the Scripture as a lie, I have found it to be reliable. So, in light of that verse, is it any wonder as to whom I conclude is trying to destroy you?

Please keep your Southern Baptist beliefs to yourself. I don't believe in Jesus anymore. He might be part of your experience but he isn't part of mine. It's so typical of your ilk that you try to make this into some sort of demonic influence. The scripture you believe in was written in the 17th century and means nothing. The Bible has been so heavily edited and translated that no one can possibly understand what the author of it in its original state really meant. If I no longer believe in Jesus I no longer believe in his arch enemy. Please stay out of this discussion.

[Riothamus12]

You will probably think I am insane. That's fine. I have heard it before. My parish priest and his exorcist friend both probably thought I was as mad as cheese, it would explain why they refused to help me on three separate occasions. But this isn't something a doctor can fix.

Best wishes,
Tannhauser

I am sorry for your pain. Finding wisdom can be painful at times, but it seems you have been listening to what is in your soul. I thus welcome you to the fold. I come from a mostly Catholic family myself, though admittedly I am on better terms with the church. Do not expect to understand all things immediately. Understanding takes time. You have been called to walk in wild places, but the Deities, Spirits, and Ancestors shall walk with you. They do not coddle, but they shall guide you and grant their wisdom and aid in whatever fashion they may. They seldom speak directly to anyone, but they are not indifferent. Though you no longer follow the path of those who revere the wise Yeshua Bar Yosef, you will find peace and truth in this one as well. I wish you the best. If you have any questions, be not afraid to ask of us. Welcome to the many traditions of the old wisdom.

Also, as with everyone here, and as someone who has contemplated doing so several times before in the depths of emotional agony, do not seek to end your life. There is always something worth living for. If you need to talk about that, you may speak with me. If you do not wish to then I strongly encourage you to contact someone who can help. Things may at times seem extraordinarily bleak, but do not give up. There are people who care about you and you are not as alone as you think. You will find people and things that will understand and aid you. Reach out. I've been there before. As my Slavic ancestors sometimes said "Times are hard but shall soon be good, times are good but shall soon be hard." This too shall pass and though there shall always be trials, those trials shall pass and you can overcome.

[SunflowerP]

There are a few things I would like to respond to.

A Reminder:

Hi, Tannhauser, Just a quick note:  When you have responses to more than one post, please make a separate response to each of them (as I've done in the two responses I'm making to you).  It makes the discussion easier to follow, and it's required by our rules. The most important aspect of quoting is the trackback link it provides to the post being quoted, and the easiest way to ensure you have that (and usually, the easiest for people reading the thread to follow) is to respond to each post separately. (It's possible to quote, with trackback, more than one post in a single reply; when you're on the page with the reply box, scroll down to where the previous posts in the thread are shown, and use the 'insert quote' button in the top right corner of each. It will put the content of that post into your reply box, and you'll have to trim it to the part of that post you're specifically replying to. This, though, should be reserved for those fairly-rare occasions when your replies are so closely related that putting them in separate posts would make it harder to understand.) This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder. No reply is necessary, but if you have questions or need clarification, please feel free to contact a member of staff privately. Thanks! Sunflower TC Forum Staff

[SunflowerP]

Please keep your Southern Baptist beliefs to yourself.
<snip>
Please stay out of this discussion.

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Tannhauser, From our rules: 'DO NOT tell other members not to post to you. You can put non-staff members on "ignore" if you do not wish to read their posts.' This is your first warning with strike. Our usual pattern is, if a member reaches three strikes, their account may be gagged (unable to post) for a week; if they violate the rules again after they're ungagged, they may be permanently banned. Sunflower TC Forum Staff

[Tannhauser]

Warning duly acknowledged. I apologise.

[SunflowerP]

Warning duly acknowledged. I apologise.

Just so you know, we really do want you to keep the quote code intact when you reply to a post. It's okay - in fact, we strongly prefer this - to delete everything except the text you're responding to, or even all the text, but the quote code is what gives the trackback link I mentioned in my earlier reminder.

The quote code is the part inside the square brackets - for example, on this post, it looks like:
[quote author=Tannhauser link=topic=16142.msg216010#msg216010 date=1533677503]
Warning duly acknowledged. I apologise.
[/quote].
If and when you do remove all the text, you do need to make sure the opening and closing quote code are on separate lines.

Sunflower

[Jainarayan]

There are tons of people, over millenia, whose lives have included both folk magic and sincere, devout, active Catholicism.

Santería comes to mind... Catholicism+African+Caribbean. Quite the eclectic fusion.