collapse
2017 Donation Drive -- Please Help Keep TC Online

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise just over $850 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 16 September: Only $296 more (after Paypal fees) needed to reach our goal! Please donate if you can.


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: St.Elijah's Day/ Christianized Celebrations  (Read 1644 times)

Nomad of Nowhere

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 47
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
St.Elijah's Day/ Christianized Celebrations
« on: July 29, 2011, 05:17:01 am »
http://12121.hostinguk.com/elijah.htm

In Eastern Europe, it seems pretty common for St.Elijah to have a lot of pagan elements associated with him. Whenever there's a thunderstorm, people from Russia to Serbia say that it's his chariot or horses rumbling across the sky, shooting arrows at dragons and demons and such. They also say that he gathers water, or releases it by slaying the dragon or many-headed serpent of Slavic folklore (also called zmey, hala, lamia, etc.) and that he spills some of it from his chariot onto the earth while he's carrying it back to heaven. In folklore, he often behaves like a God, not a saint- although from the early Slavic point of view, there probably wasn't much difference; the word for deity (bogi) was used for icon in old Russian. In one Russian tale, he actually tries to ruin a peasant's crops with hail and storms because he honors St.Nicholas but not him. In the story, St.Nicholas protects the peasant through trickery. This day is full of old pre-Christian practices, like sacrificing of animals and the creation of sacred friction fires.

On August second, I intend to try and celebrate a de-Christianized version of this holiday, dedicated to the Slavic storm God, Perun. I'm not sure how it will go, but I was wondering if anyone else has experience trying to take the Christian element out of Christianized celebrations. One could argue that the approach to Yule and Ostara practiced by many pagans is very much the same.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 05:24:58 am by Nomad of Nowhere »

catja6

Re: St.Elijah's Day/ Christianized Celebrations
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 04:17:56 pm »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;9178
http://12121.hostinguk.com/elijah.htm


It depends enormously on the holiday in question, what's being claimed as "pagan," what religious/spiritual traditions are supplying the "pagan" elements, and so forth.

Eastern European practices in general, and Russian practices in particular, were often much more thinly Christianized -- conversion came much later, and was much spottier and incomplete than in Western Europe; there were fewer people, especially out in the sticks, who knew enough about Christian doctrine (including priests) to play orthodoxy police.  The Russian term for this state of affairs is "dvoeverie" (dual faith), and there are analogues in a number of Slavic languages.

When you start talking about Western Europe, it gets much trickier.  Easter is entirely a Christian festival, but because of its timing, it picked up a bunch of pre-existing "yay spring" local practices, especially in Northern Europe.  That doesn't make Easter some kind of OMG PAGAN RITE that MEAN CHRISTIANS STOLE FROM US.  Christmas/Yule celebrations are even more complex, and it's worth noting that at many points in history, the most hardcore element of whatever Church was dominant at the time complained that Christmas shouldn't be celebrated at all, because it was far too unruly and paganish -- Christmas as a festival was banned in colonial New England for exactly that reason.  So the meme that Christmas was some kind of "pure" Christian religious ritual that was "polluted" by pagan elements and commercialism and other bugaboos doesn't really hold water.  That doesn't make it OMG PAGAN either, though.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:18:37 pm by catja6 »

Nomad of Nowhere

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 47
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: St.Elijah's Day/ Christianized Celebrations
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 08:36:10 pm »
Quote from: catja6;9547
It depends enormously on the holiday in question, what's being claimed as "pagan," what religious/spiritual traditions are supplying the "pagan" elements, and so forth.

Eastern European practices in general, and Russian practices in particular, were often much more thinly Christianized -- conversion came much later, and was much spottier and incomplete than in Western Europe; there were fewer people, especially out in the sticks, who knew enough about Christian doctrine (including priests) to play orthodoxy police.  The Russian term for this state of affairs is "dvoeverie" (dual faith), and there are analogues in a number of Slavic languages.

When you start talking about Western Europe, it gets much trickier.  Easter is entirely a Christian festival, but because of its timing, it picked up a bunch of pre-existing "yay spring" local practices, especially in Northern Europe.  That doesn't make Easter some kind of OMG PAGAN RITE that MEAN CHRISTIANS STOLE FROM US.  Christmas/Yule celebrations are even more complex, and it's worth noting that at many points in history, the most hardcore element of whatever Church was dominant at the time complained that Christmas shouldn't be celebrated at all, because it was far too unruly and paganish -- Christmas as a festival was banned in colonial New England for exactly that reason.  So the meme that Christmas was some kind of "pure" Christian religious ritual that was "polluted" by pagan elements and commercialism and other bugaboos doesn't really hold water.  That doesn't make it OMG PAGAN either, though.

 
That makes sense. When my friends talk about the Christians stealing Easter, I point out that Easter has as much to do with passover as any pagan holiday. Especially in other countries like Spain where they don't even use the term "easter", just "pascha". However, I think for Christmas, the Christian foundation is a lot weaker, since unlike pascha, early Christians generally didn't even celebrate Christmas.

LeG

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 26
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: St.Elijah's Day/ Christianized Celebrations
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 06:25:41 pm »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;9178
http://12121.hostinguk.com/elijah.htm

In Eastern Europe, it seems pretty common for St.Elijah to have a lot of pagan elements associated with him. Whenever there's a thunderstorm, people from Russia to Serbia say that it's his chariot or horses rumbling across the sky, shooting arrows at dragons and demons and such. They also say that he gathers water, or releases it by slaying the dragon or many-headed serpent of Slavic folklore (also called zmey, hala, lamia, etc.) and that he spills some of it from his chariot onto the earth while he's carrying it back to heaven. In folklore, he often behaves like a God, not a saint- although from the early Slavic point of view, there probably wasn't much difference; the word for deity (bogi) was used for icon in old Russian. In one Russian tale, he actually tries to ruin a peasant's crops with hail and storms because he honors St.Nicholas but not him. In the story, St.Nicholas protects the peasant through trickery. This day is full of old pre-Christian practices, like sacrificing of animals and the creation of sacred friction fires.

On August second, I intend to try and celebrate a de-Christianized version of this holiday, dedicated to the Slavic storm God, Perun. I'm not sure how it will go, but I was wondering if anyone else has experience trying to take the Christian element out of Christianized celebrations. One could argue that the approach to Yule and Ostara practiced by many pagans is very much the same.

 
Here is example of celebration of this celebrate in our country by one of the pagan clans:

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
1009 Views
Last post July 20, 2011, 11:29:32 am
by DomesticWitch
31 Replies
5572 Views
Last post July 17, 2015, 11:37:42 am
by RecycledBenedict
6 Replies
1000 Views
Last post May 23, 2012, 10:39:36 am
by Juni
2 Replies
922 Views
Last post January 31, 2013, 01:13:34 pm
by Aiwelin
38 Replies
2965 Views
Last post February 03, 2013, 02:21:31 pm
by Siannan13

* Members in Chat

0 members chatting in CauldronMUX:
Updated every five minutes or so

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 20
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

CauldronMUX Chat Staff
Chief MUX Wizard:
Darkhawk

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall