collapse

Author Topic: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans  (Read 15888 times)

Asch

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 883
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2013, 03:58:20 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;123637
Setting aside the Universal Paganism fallacy involved in the notion that any modern person could claim that something was stolen from "us", I am really actively uncomfortable with the ease with which many pagans can simply erase Judaism from the history of early Christianity.

 
I completely agree, I attended a Messianic Judaic church as a kid after previously attending a baptist church and was incredibly confused by the lack of acknowledgement of Judaism in the first and confused by the messianic nature of the latter as a kid because I didn't understand the antisemitism, politics, etc. that went into shaping the former vs. the latter.

I should have been clearer about understanding =/= approving or winking and nodding.

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2437
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2013, 04:57:51 pm »
Quote from: Asch;123635
A misguided sense of self righteous outrage?

Yep, and IME it coincides with what DH called the 'Universal Pagan fallacy.'  Couple that with some Old Religion and Burning Times myths, and Lo! We can haz opreshun!  

(Insert gif of pagan'd out lolcat that is also, paradoxically, splay-armed like Jesus.)  

Oddly enough, I've noticed the PPC (pagan persecution complex) occurring most among middle-class white folk.  I wonder why that is.
I pointed out the bad history, once, in a FB group, and... poof.  Locked out.  You say facts is facts.  I say facts are a bitch.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 04:58:48 pm by MadZealot »
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2013, 05:22:41 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;123665
 
Oddly enough, I've noticed the PPC (pagan persecution complex) occurring most among middle-class white folk.  I wonder why that is.


I think it boils down to Special Snowflake Syndrome.  "I am SPECIAL, dammit!  I am so SPECIAL that there must be shadow groups wanting to OPPRESS me for being so SPECIAL!"

Quote

I pointed out the bad history, once, in a FB group, and... poof.  Locked out.  You say facts is facts.  I say facts are a bitch.

 
You expected some other reaction?  People tend not to be called out on their oppression complex-fueled Special Snowflake Syndrome.


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2437
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2013, 05:46:08 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;123666
I think it boils down to Special Snowflake Syndrome.  "I am SPECIAL, dammit!  I am so SPECIAL that there must be shadow groups wanting to OPPRESS me for being so SPECIAL!"

Oh yeah, a big steaming heap o'speshulness.  Also a desire to unite under a banner, and an excuse to hate the [shadow] 'oppressors.'  I don't think some people can have a 'we' without a 'they,' an 'us' without a 'them.'
 
Quote
You expected some other reaction?

I guess not.  Lesson learned: don't futz with other peoples UPMs (Unverified Persecution Myths.)
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10110
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 226
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2013, 05:53:21 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;123667
I guess not.  Lesson learned: don't futz with other peoples UPMs (Unverified Persecution Myths.)

I never learned that lesson. Of course, I don't care if I'm kicked out of some FB group for not buying the group's special snowflake version of reality.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2013, 05:53:50 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;123667
Oh yeah, a big steaming heap o'speshulness.  Also a desire to unite under a banner, and an excuse to hate the [shadow] 'oppressors.'  I don't think some people can have a 'we' without a 'they,' an 'us' without a 'them.'
 

I guess not.  Lesson learned: don't futz with other peoples UPMs (Unverified Persecution Myths.)

 
Agreed.

*steals the phrase UPMs (Unverified Persecution Myths) for later use.*


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2437
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 01:51:27 am »
Quote from: RandallS;123668
I never learned that lesson. Of course, I don't care if I'm kicked out of some FB group for not buying the group's special snowflake version of reality.


I'm with you there, Randall.  I've called BS on the Christian Theft Fallacy several times, but been booted for it only once.  

So far.  :dwink:
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 04:48:46 am »
Quote from: RandallS;123644
Many Christians do as well, unfortunately -- many simply give what amounts to lip service to Judaism role in early Christianity, admitting there was one but downplaying it as much as possible.

 
With a major exception of a significant number of conservative Christian.

mandrina

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 890
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 06:53:28 am »
Quote from: sailor;123695
With a major exception of a significant number of conservative Christian.

 
the support of israel and the recognition of the jewish role in the history of christianity are two different things.
Katrina

"I have a bad feeling about this."  Every good guy in the Star Wars saga, and an occasional bad guy as well.

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10110
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 226
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 07:44:05 am »
Quote from: sailor;123695
With a major exception of a significant number of conservative Christian.

Unfortunately, in my mind, a number of conservative Christians  -- at least of the Protestant type -- are (at best) only false friends. They support Israel because they believe Israel's existence is a requirement for their version of the end times to come to pass. And as for Jews themselves, they believe they are all damned to hell unless they convert and become Christian. Their acknowledgement of the role of Jews in early Christianity is often limited because they really don't know that much about early church history and what they do know is heavily filtered by their (odd for Christians) theology.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2437
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 09:37:22 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;123699
Unfortunately, in my mind, a number of conservative Christians  -- at least of the Protestant type -- are (at best) only false friends. They support Israel because they believe Israel's existence is a requirement for their version of the end times to come to pass. And as for Jews themselves, they believe they are all damned to hell unless they convert and become Christian.


Mhmm.

Also: Omygod, they killed Jesus!  (you bastards!)

Nevermind that Christ's dying was part of the plan from the git-go.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10110
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 226
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 10:18:05 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;123819
Mhmm.

Also: Omygod, they killed Jesus!  (you bastards!)

Nevermind that Christ's dying was part of the plan from the git-go.

Not to mention that the Romans, not the Jews, killed Jesus.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 10:21:39 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;123827
Not to mention that the Romans, not the Jews, killed Jesus.

 
Although if it was Jesus' plan to die the entire time, it was technically suicide-by-cop.


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4794
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 670
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 10:22:20 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;123819
Nevermind that Christ's dying was part of the plan from the git-go.

 
It's amazing what a successful retcon can do.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2437
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2013, 12:56:33 am »
Quote from: Melamphoros;123829
Although if it was Jesus' plan to die the entire time, it was technically suicide-by-cop.

:eek::eek:


Quote from: Darkhawk;123830
It's amazing what a successful retcon can do.

:eek::eek::eek:

Bwaaaaaa hahaaaaaaaaaaaa
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
957 Views
Last post September 18, 2011, 06:58:53 am
by HeartShadow
35 Replies
3756 Views
Last post November 12, 2011, 10:36:48 am
by SatSekhem
34 Replies
4341 Views
Last post December 03, 2011, 10:16:59 pm
by BunnyMaz
9 Replies
1979 Views
Last post January 14, 2013, 04:24:45 am
by SunflowerP
15 Replies
3059 Views
Last post February 22, 2016, 06:44:55 pm
by RecycledBenedict

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 48
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall