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Author Topic: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans  (Read 15768 times)

Melamphoros

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 12:08:37 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;36932
I just think we need to have this someplace easy to find for whenever someone starts going on about how all the christmas customs were stolen from the pagans.  I think this has always been a yearly thing, probably twice or thrice yearly since there's easter and halloween, so this post is useful and always relevant.

MAybe we could add the extra sources.  Hutton's good on the folklore, I know others know a lot of them.

 
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?


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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 02:24:05 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?

I think that's a good idea! (and I have no clue about the permission)

Juniperberry

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 02:43:21 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?


You might want to fact check it before TC decides to endorse it.
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Melamphoros

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2011, 03:11:39 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;36955
You might want to fact check it before TC decides to endorse it.

 
Such as...?


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Starglade

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2011, 05:33:50 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36958
Such as...?


::nods:: I think those of us who were around for Koi's time here can vouch for her facts. She was nothing if not thorough. JMHO of course.

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2011, 06:07:54 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;36932
I just think we need to have this someplace easy to find

 
Probably only useful to me, but that's why I included the reference to it being called infamous.  It's a true fact, and I can remember it, and there's only one non-TC reference in all of Google. :D
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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2011, 06:26:29 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?

I'd rather add it as an article -- that way no one could modify it. Technically, we don't have to ask permission as our rules have given us the right to reuse stuff online on other parts of the site for years, but I will run it by Koi first in case she wants to make any changes.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 05:11:31 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36958
Such as...?

 
You know, a detailed post would sort of defeat the purpose behind suggesting people fact check posts for themselves (even those written by a popular member). But,  for example, the Catholic Church itself acknowledges that: greenery decorations were inspired by fertility rites and Archbishop Martin of Bragi condemned them, the date setting of Christmas has always been influenced by solar cults (natalis invictus for Rome and spring-time pagan practices for Alexandria), as it was only fitting that the son of God should materialize with the physical sun, the Gregorian Calendar was implemented in 1582, long after the 4th c date of Christmas according to the Julian, and Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, was a missionary to the Teutonic people before the implementation of Christmas.

Both Koi and the OP's post are rather superficial when it comes to the controversial observance of Christmas and the dynamics between the pagan and Christian. It was never the 'sacred holiday' that Koi suggests and she fails to mention why it was "low on the totem" pole. Christmas merry-making has been an agitation to the church as late as 1664, when festivities were again condemned. And that goes back to the heresies and the resilient pagan Psyche.

Even though Christianity is based on the Christ coming to earth, it has long been a sin to celebrate his life. Celebrating his birthday was forbidden by the church because it agitated the polytheistic locals that were supposed to be converted into monotheism. The heresies dealt a lot with the nature of Christ- if he is God in man's form than God couldnt truly have a birthday as he's without beginning or end. The birth of Christ is only the appearance of God in man and not the birth of an individual. To the pagans, this concept was hard to grasp, and they reverted back into celebrating a polytheistic Christ deity that God beget. So, Christmas was a thorn to the church and was never wholly Christian, and as an alien philosophy to the polytheists it was never truly pagan. Imo, that's where the real dialogue comes in.
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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2011, 05:50:16 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;37061
You know, a detailed post would sort of defeat the purpose behind suggesting people fact check posts for themselves (even those written by a popular member).

 

I'm not criticising your rebuttal, but to do what you suggest, then we probably need to put up good sources so people can, in fact, fact check.
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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 10:46:49 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;37061
Both Koi and the OP's post are rather superficial when it comes to the controversial observance of Christmas and the dynamics between the pagan and Christian.

 
Thing is, Koi wasn't writing a comprehensive article on the subject of pagan/Christian dynamics surrounding Christmas, she was writing a reply to a forum post, which itself was an unusually substantial example of the typical fluffy whine about "Christians stole it from the pagans!"  It's already pretty long as forum replies go, even by TC standards; when the point is rebutting fluffy misconceptions, "comprehensible" (which'd include being relatively brief) trumps "comprehensive".

Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.  While it'd be a fine thing indeed if Koi had found time in her busy life to polish it into an article as she'd hoped to do, it seems to me far better to have it in the unpolished form we do, than not to have it at all.

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Asch

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 10:51:17 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;37211


Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.  While it'd be a fine thing indeed if Koi had found time in her busy life to polish it into an article as she'd hoped to do, it seems to me far better to have it in the unpolished form we do, than not to have it at all.

Sunflower

 
Is it though? I'm not trying to be pedantic or pick a fight but it seems that without the original portion that Koi was replying to that the reply is somehow lessened. Perhaps posting the original post she was replying to would help even things out because as it stands it is an interesting read and does work to burst some misconceptions but as Juniperberry pointed out there are some (apparently) glaring oversights (that again, apparently) are due to the reply being focused on a specific post by another person rather than an overall rebuttal of the Christians stole Christmas complaint.

I guess what I'm saying is, if it's not an actual rebuttal of the argument/complaint/concept, why is it being used as one?

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 11:34:38 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;37211
...when the point is rebutting fluffy misconceptions, "comprehensible" (which'd include being relatively brief) trumps "comprehensive".


Interesting. I'm not sure that the depth needed to counter Juniperberry's claim of superficiality regarding Koi's response would be predicated on the state of said response's comprehensiveness.

But that's not what I find interesting; your claim that there were "fluffy misconceptions" is. In general, why not just respond with "that's fluffy." Why go to any length at all in rebutting those ideas? And if a person is going to spend time doing a point-by-point analysis and critique, why do it half-way?

I'm leaving something out. Is it obvious?

Quote from: SunflowerP;37211

Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.


Indeed, but I don't think cites would be too much to ask in a situation where the forum reply in question is being held up as a potential "known good quantity" of facts. Especially regarding a topic that is apparently a regular source of confusion. Having those references would help folks debate those facts (if desired) and keep the discussion on point.

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2012, 12:00:03 pm »
Quote from: Leeway;37220
But that's not what I find interesting; your claim that there were "fluffy misconceptions" is. In general, why not just respond with "that's fluffy."

 
Because this is a discussion and debate board, and uninformative responses are barely worth posting?
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drekfletch

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2012, 01:21:19 pm »
Quote from: Asch;37213
Is it though? I'm not trying to be pedantic or pick a fight but it seems that without the original portion that Koi was replying to that the reply is somehow lessened.

 
The message Koi was responding to is quoted completely in the text of her reply.  The quotes are offset by +++ bracketing the text.
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drekfletch

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Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2012, 01:49:05 pm »
Quote from: Leeway;37220
Indeed, but I don't think cites would be too much to ask in a situation where the forum reply in question is being held up as a potential "known good quantity" of facts. Especially regarding a topic that is apparently a regular source of confusion. Having those references would help folks debate those facts (if desired) and keep the discussion on point.

 
I agree with some of your points.  Citations and references would be helpful in expanding and continuing the discussion.

Regarding presentation of the post, I can see how it appears that way, but my intent wasn't that... strong.  Koi's knowledge was well displayed and therefore understood at the time.  The fact that it addresses many of the basic errors made by the 'fluffies' I felt was cause to preserve it.  Unfortunately, the rest of the discussion is lost.  It continued on for at least two more pages (and this was the 33rd post).
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