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Author Topic: Objections against the terms of Paganism and Heathendom among Hellenists  (Read 8001 times)

RandallS

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Quote from: Haganrix;103755
As you are an Hellenic Pagan what I found on your site have you ever heard about the myth of the birth of the Goddess Athena? Isn't there any connection between Zeus and Athena?

Father - Daughter in most myths. Still two different people however, just as my father was a different person from me.
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Quote from: Haganrix;103754
Because of syntax error see next post

 
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Hi, Haganrix,

Fixing broken quote code is one of the few sorts of edits we do allow after more than a few minutes. (Alternately, if you're not sure how it's broken, you can leave it and a staff member will fix it.)

Deleting the entire content of the post nine minutes after posting - for any reason - is not permissible.

Because edits of that sort are a very serious infraction on TC, I'm doing this as a warning, not just a reminder.  However, since you did make a new reply with the same content as the original, it will not count as a strike against you.

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Haganrix

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Quote from: RandallS;103771
Father - Daughter in most myths. Still two different people however, just as my father was a different person from me.

 

There seems to be some misunderstanding. I never said parents and children lack in individuality, but there is also much common in them. Shine posted:

I like to approach deities as separate entities until they prove otherwise.

That was one of the most important questions ad the end of Athens Academy in the 6th Century and the philosopher Damascius dealt with it in his treatize "Aporiai kai Lyseis peri ton proton Archon" (Problems and Solutions concerning the first Principles, or: Damascius, On first Principles, the translation by Artur Darby Nock).

The question of the era and presumably of our time too is about the first cause, the proton kinoun in the philosophy of Aristoteles, the origin of all.

Damascius, although beeing neoplatonic himself, referred to the teaching of the Pythagoreans and called the first cause "e Koinonia" (the community). Thus he suggested there was more than one single unit as the Abrahamic religions claimed but on the other hand they were not as separated and divided and so totally different from each other that there was no pantheon.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 10:10:16 am by Haganrix »

RandallS

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Quote from: Haganrix;103865
The question of the era and presumably of our time too is about the first cause, the proton kinoun in the philosophy of Aristoteles, the origin of all.

I'm a follower of the Hellenic Gods, not of any Hellenic philosopher. What the philosophers say about the gods doesn't mean much to me.
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Snowdrop

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Quote from: Haganrix;75710
I'm a member of the competitionary forum Hellenismos.us. Many people there refuse the terms of pagan or Paganism,  heathen or Heathendom as more than inadaquate. Of course, those words had been invented as christian insults, there should be no doubt. But are we tied to those connotations in a time where many other people feel proud calling themselves heathen or pagan?

 
Not a Hellenist, so can someone who is please clarify for me: is the term Heathen ever actually used in the context of Hellenismos?  I'm unclear on whether OP is objecting to Hellenists being classified as Heathen or whether the objection is to the fact that Germanic pagans use the term.  Because those are two seriously different fish to fry.

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Quote from: Snowdrop;103899
Not a Hellenist, so can someone who is please clarify for me: is the term Heathen ever actually used in the context of Hellenismos?  I'm unclear on whether OP is objecting to Hellenists being classified as Heathen or whether the objection is to the fact that Germanic pagans use the term.  Because those are two seriously different fish to fry.

 
I personally have never heard of anyone outside of Germanic/Norse pagans using the term heathen to describe themselves.


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Rhyshadow

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Quote from: Melamphoros;103905
I personally have never heard of anyone outside of Germanic/Norse pagans using the term heathen to describe themselves.

 
Heathen is northern European in origin and the root word refers to those who are uncivilized or barbaric

The Romans would have used paganii (plural of paganus) which referred to those who did not accept the dominance of Rome and preferred their local governments/traditions. Later was applied to those who, initially, did not accept the Church. First couple hundred years of conversion was actually quite peaceful, wasn't till it became the dominant religion in the fading Roman Empire that they started getting mean about it

Fireof9

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Quote from: Rhyshadow;103185
As a Hard-Polytheist, I have to agree with Mel

Zeus, Odin, An Daghda, Ra all may have similar positions - father of the gods, for lack of a better term, as part of their areas of responsibility - but they are SO different in the details.

 To further this......

I work on a shrub and tree wholesale nursery. The trees are grown on two farms that are physically separate from the rest of the company. I run one of those and my friend Colin runs the other.

Now both Colin and I have the same position. We also share the same taste in wine, beer, food, politics, a lot of the same philosophy, we find the same women attractive, we like the same vehicles. But yet are we the same person, just different sides of the coin?
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Haganrix

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Quote from: RandallS;103885
I'm a follower of the Hellenic Gods, not of any Hellenic philosopher. What the philosophers say about the gods doesn't mean much to me.



Are you also following the idea of the pantheon of the Olympians?

Haganrix

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Quote from: Snowdrop;103899
Not a Hellenist, so can someone who is please clarify for me: is the term Heathen ever actually used in the context of Hellenismos?  I'm unclear on whether OP is objecting to Hellenists being classified as Heathen or whether the objection is to the fact that Germanic pagans use the term.  Because those are two seriously different fish to fry.


In the german translations of Yssee, Stilian and others they use the term because in Germany "heidnisch" is more familiar than "pagan". But the meanings of the two words do not differ very much. Even in old norwegian texts, say about Hakon Jarl, you will find the words "heidin gods". "Pagan" is just the roman term.

And in german translations Hellenists call themselves "hellenistische Heiden".
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 03:21:56 pm by Haganrix »

RandallS

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Quote from: Haganrix;103909
Are you also following the idea of the pantheon of the Olympians?

I follow the Olympians, yes. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "the idea of".
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Haganrix

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Quote from: RandallS;103934
I follow the Olympians, yes. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "the idea of".

 
It just means that the Gods are not totally separate from each other but consist of a divine community, the pantheon. And according to this notion also the first cause was not a single unit but a plurality. However, they are not so absolutely different as some users have suggested above. Or speaking with the philosopher Salustius, "Heaven is common to all Gods".

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Quote from: Haganrix;104208
It just means that the Gods are not totally separate from each other but consist of a divine community, the pantheon.

 
Erm, I have a family too, it doesn't make me not an individual.
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Rhyshadow

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Quote from: Haganrix;104208
It just means that the Gods are not totally separate from each other but consist of a divine community, the pantheon. And according to this notion also the first cause was not a single unit but a plurality. However, they are not so absolutely different as some users have suggested above. Or speaking with the philosopher Salustius, "Heaven is common to all Gods".

 
That might work in some instances, but if you read the Gaelic tales, you'll see that the Tuatha de Dannan are definitely separate, unique individuals - and while the 'idea' of heaven, or some place similar, may be a universal construct, the specifics of it are very different in application - re Tir na nOg for the Irish

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